Book Club featuring Dr. Cindy McGovern

this is George G. And the time is right to welcome today’s guest strong and powerful. Dr. Sidney McGovern. Dr. Cindy, are you ready to do this? I am so ready. George, thank you so much for having me. Oh, excited to have you on. And this is actually our monthly book club. So Dr. Cindy, you are the first lady of sales, your best selling author and acclaimed keynote speaker, the CEO of Orange Leaf consulting, the author of your first book was every job a sales job, the newest book is selling yourself how to create, live and sell a powerful personal brand. Tell us a little about your personal life, some more about your work, and what made it motivated you to put pen to paper on the new book. So I run the consulting firm, I live in San Francisco, California. And my job is to basically take sales out of the boardroom, put it in the classroom, that is my life’s mission. I it’s a skill that I think we should have all been taught in high school, I have a PhD in communication and wasn’t taught what was in these books. Unfortunately, I went to trade school. So I want to make sure everybody knows that they are selling every day. They’re good at it. They’re successful at it already. If you ever convinced any other person to do anything for you, that’s sales. So let’s do liquefy it and help people to get more of what they want.

Unknown Speaker 1:29
The IQ of five very technical term, George, that’s an absolutely technical term. What Why do people think that sales is icky. So I used to think that and that’s kind of the funny piece of this is now I’m known as the First Lady of sales, but I never wanted to do sales because I thought it was icky. It has this stigma. And I think we all think of you know, the pushy salesperson, the manipulative salesperson, the person that’s trying to sell you versus invite you to buy. And so I never wanted anything to do with sales. Fast forward in my career, I got put into a sales role and thought, oh my gosh, I’m gonna get fired, like I can’t do this. And then realize I’d actually been selling my entire life. I didn’t call it sales, I called it helping people.

Unknown Speaker 2:18
And once I reframed it in my own mind, I went, Oh, wait a second. There’s there’s something here that I have to help other people with. And again, loving to help people wanted to get the message out and so and paper.

Unknown Speaker 2:32
Love it. So,

Unknown Speaker 2:35
so many things that we should have been taught in school that we weren’t. But that’s probably a whole nother conversation for a whole nother day.

Unknown Speaker 2:44
We were talking a little bit before we got started about this whole quiet quitting thing. And I think it’s I’ve long been aware of the unfortunate reality that way too few of us actually enjoy our work fact a lot of us are disengaged, which means we actively hate it not quite quitting, which just means I’m going to check out and do the bare minimum. So how does how does what your work? How does it sort of play into to that dynamic? So a lot of the work that I do is, you know, coaching and developmental skills within organizations that with individuals. But what’s interesting is these books, my goal is to help you to recognize your brand’s and how you’re selling yourself, and hence the title, right. But we’re already doing, we’re selling ourselves and so this quiet, quitting and even quiet firing? Are you selling what you mean to be, you know, if you really are doing quiet quitting, I think that’s an added resignation to the role. I think it’s an active pullback, where I think if you’re just doing the job, and you’re doing the job that the way it’s supposed to be done, that’s all going to work. But you’re making a conscious choice to pull back, you’re making a conscious choice to say, Oh, I could send that email now. Not going to, that’s a very different place. And it’s a very different headspace. And in my opinion, it’s a bit heartbreaking that people are getting to that point where they feel so disenchanted, that they don’t want to give more. And so in that case, the business consultant in me looks to leadership and says, Well, what culture are we building? Are we empowering our people? Are we helping them to feel valued and appreciated? And if not, where are they supposed to find that at work? Then? What are we doing to make sure that everybody feels like they can come with their best authentic self every day, and that will be rewarded in some? Yeah, I think that that’s a really important and interesting conversation. I was I was watching or listening to some sports related podcast over the weekend and this whole new thing about being able to pay college players. And one of the coaches was saying, well, when one of my players wants to leave, that’s totally fine. That just means I did a bad job. And so if I’m the boss or the manager or whatever, and I’ve got all these employees that are just sort of,

Unknown Speaker 4:58
sort of zoning out and

Unknown Speaker 5:00
and quite quitting or whatever. That’s that’s a pretty big indictment on on leadership. So I think that that’s that’s, that’s really interesting. I think that people who are listening to this podcast probably fall into the category of being a little bit more proactive and be more thoughtful and mindful of the way that I’m presenting myself to the world. And maybe they haven’t thought about that I have a personal brand before. Yeah. And it’s funny, because I think, again, for your listeners, they are more proactive, they are more self aware, perhaps, than sort of the average bear. But what’s interesting about that is, that is where your personal brand is most crucial. And being aware that you absolutely have one, you’re already selling it? Is that what you mean to be selling? So for example, for some of the listeners, if you think you’re known as the go to guy or gal, that’s fantastic. But are you the go to guy or gal for the three skill sets you want to be? Or are you the go to guy or gal that just remembers everybody’s birthday, you know,

Unknown Speaker 5:58
what I mean? So it’s making sure that you’re selling that aspect of your brand, that you want people to remember when you’re not in the room, and then they can become advocates for you. I firmly believe nobody does this life alone, we all lean on each other, we all help each other. And your personal brand also allows others to know how they can promote you, they can support you, they can help you to not only reach your goals, but advocate for others.

Unknown Speaker 6:26
Nice, you mentioned three skills.

Unknown Speaker 6:31
So we’re human beings, at the end of the day, our attention spans are short,

Unknown Speaker 6:37
you could be amazing at 15 things, I’m probably going to remember three, so narrow it down. And it doesn’t mean that you can’t be known for different skills in different facets of your life. I actually talked about this in the book that I think we’re all kind of like a diamond with multiple facets, and maybe at work, you are the on time, diligent follow through detail oriented person, maybe at home, you’re the fun parent, the you know, quirky one, the creative, it doesn’t mean you can’t be both authentically, but it’s making sure that the people around you, you’re selling them the piece that makes the most sense for that to help you and to help.

Unknown Speaker 7:19
Got it. And I love the idea of allowing other people who were in contact with to become advocates of ours. And just I think that when you start thinking about that, then the possibility sort of comes into the equation. Wow, I hadn’t thought about it like that. But why wouldn’t these people that I work with and I care for and they care for me? Why wouldn’t I want them to position? Why would I want to put my best foot forward so that they understand how best to advocate for me? Yeah, and I think that that’s one of the things that we forget, right? I want to ask all the listeners, have you ever had someone say, Oh, I forgot you did that. Or you did that. That’s not their fault that they didn’t remember, it’s our fault that we didn’t remind them. And that’s one of those pieces where we need to make sure that we’re fully advocating for the pieces of our brand we want them to remember us by and that may change throughout your life and throughout your career. And that’s completely okay. And if you’re pivoting or if you changed in the last couple of years, or even just slightly, you know, shifted your focus. It’s kind of a micro rebrand. And making sure people now know how to tell your story. So they can.

Unknown Speaker 8:36
So do I just get a shirt that says reliable?

Unknown Speaker 8:41
How does that? How does it work? He totally could. And that would certainly be a conversation starter. So maybe a button. I think we’re onto something George are gonna get your branding shirts. It’s it’s funny that you asked that question, though, because I think it’s three, three different steps to do this successfully. It’s create live and sell it. And so the first piece is creating it, it’s being aware of what you want taking an honest inventory of how you are known. And maybe if you’re not known in the way that you want to be, why not? And let’s find that out. And then the second part is you start living it. That’s where you start following through advocating defending your brand. When people say well, you don’t you’re not the IT person. Yeah, I am. I’m actually really good at this. And here’s why. So making sure you do that. And then the selling part is the part that people forget. And I always giggle when people say well, you know, sell yourself. They forget the operative word there is sell.

Unknown Speaker 9:40
And I think we sort of expect our skills to speak for themselves or we expect our experience to speak for itself. You got to sell it, you got to be clear on how you want to be known. And that’s really where that T shirt would start the conversation to sell it but it’s you looking for those opportunities.

Unknown Speaker 10:00
To elevate that facet of your brand, you looking for the opportunity to raise your hand for that opportunity and say, I want to get this tribe, I can do that, and giving yourself permission to go after it as well, which is where we kind of get in our heads and impostor syndrome creeps in, and all those awful things, but really being mindful that if this is who I want to be, and I want to live my most authentic self,

Unknown Speaker 10:24
I gotta find those opportunities to sell it.

Unknown Speaker 10:28
I love it.

Unknown Speaker 10:30
So it wasn’t that far off with a T shirt, not at all a little bit more, a little bit more subtle and measured and creative. So the the Create piece, taking that honest inventory and say, okay, and oh, geez, I, my guess that I do pride myself in being an organized person, or hard working, or reliable, or creative, or Texas, whatever it is. But if we don’t, we do need to spend a little bit of time and just kind of get clear on that.

Unknown Speaker 11:03
We do. And I think that that’s where we know ourselves really well, or at least most of us do. And any of your listeners, I’m sure we’re you know, listening to a podcast, you’re looking to better yourself. So slightly different than maybe the regular population, but truly recognizing that, and being open to feedback, and seeking feedback. And that’s one of the things that I also talked about in the book is, when you’re doing that on this inventory, you need to look in the mirror, and you need others to hold up the mirror for you as well. You can’t do it by yourself. So asking folks to say, what is it about me what you know, what are those things? What are the pieces that you wouldn’t recommend me for and why? And being open to taking that without judgment, without judgment of yourself without judgment of the other person? Let it come to you. Because I think what’s interesting is when you really start to think about your personal brand, and how you want to be known, and I do a little exercise in the book, where you write down all the things that you want to be known as most people are more surprised by what’s not on the list

Unknown Speaker 12:05
than what is on it. And I think that’s what you end up finding in your inventory. You take this inventory people like Well, I wouldn’t put you in that that group where I would put you in this one. And you’re like, yep, don’t want to be in that one. That’s exactly right.

Unknown Speaker 12:17
So it gives you that chance to look and make sure. But if I can’t tell others, why you’re awesome, and I can’t tell others, what I call on your superpowers are, I can’t be a brand ambassador.

Unknown Speaker 12:31
And that’s why the creation is so important. Because you have to make it easy for other people to tell your story.

Unknown Speaker 12:40
Makes a lot of sense.

Unknown Speaker 12:43
Why do people we don’t like resistance. Most most people don’t, I don’t want negative feedback.

Unknown Speaker 12:53
And let things come to me. Those are those those can be difficult concepts.

Unknown Speaker 13:00
Very difficult concepts. But what I would encourage all of your listeners to consider is that feedback is out there. And all of those people are already a walking commercial for you. That is not the commercial you want on.

Unknown Speaker 13:14
So we rather know our blind spot, stop being a baby? And

Unknown Speaker 13:21
well, that too. Right? Well, yes. But really stepping into it. And, and, and dealing with feelings of discomfort. And, you know, you can get your feelings hurt, that’s temporary, what we’re talking about is really essentially living the kind of life that you’re interested in living. So let’s accept the fact that it’s a process and it might be a little bit uncomfortable as we’re going through it. But over the long term, it will be more than worth it. Absolutely, absolutely. Growth is never comfortable. If growth is comfortable. That’s not growth. That’s

Unknown Speaker 14:01
so you know, as you’re growing and expanding, you’re gonna butt up against the edge of that. And that’s what this is. And by the way, the way we except the back says a lot about your personal brand as well. The fact that you even seek feedback says a lot about your personal brand. It says I’m someone who’s trying to improve. I’m someone who’s trying to grow. I’m someone who wants to learn how I can better serve and deliver and be a team player. So that alone actually speaks to the brand that you’re probably wanting to sell. Yeah, I think that that makes a ton of sense. That the permission to go after it. It’s sort of what we’ve been talking about. And what I’ve been sort of dancing around until I finally figured it out in my head.

Unknown Speaker 14:47
You know, nobody’s ever gonna give you permission. Nobody’s ever gonna say Hey, George, it’s time for you to really step into the life you want and to be known for the things you want to be known for. That’s, I can’t imagine that that’s ever going to happen.

Unknown Speaker 15:01
So you and I have enough time to do just about everything we want Dr. Sunday, but we don’t have time to waste. So why sit around and wait for this to happen? I could not agree more. And I think it’s funny because people think, even with their personal brand, it’s like, well, it’s not I’m not ready to reveal it, I’m not ready, you’ll you will literally stop yourself every step of the way, with excuses, because there will always be excuses. And I really believe there are two things, reasons and results, reasons don’t count. So even if the result is not the one you wanted, it’s information. You know, you took a left hand turn, you hit a brick wall, okay, great. That wasn’t the door for you. Now you pivot, and so helping people to empower themselves. And, you know, I don’t know anybody that’s ever done something bold, that wasn’t at least a tiny bit afraid or a tiny bit nervous about that. And it’s the payoff. At the end. It’s that on the other side of fear is that amazing joy and excitement and fulfillment and the delivery of helping others. But it’s a little bit scary when you’re stepping past that threshold. Yeah, I love it. So when somebody picks up, sell yourself, what what are you hoping that that they take away from it? The biggest thing that I want them to take away is that they’ve already got that brand, they’re already selling it, but here’s how to do it better. And on purpose, that and that’s literally why I wrote the book, I was finishing my, my doctoral degree, and somebody gave me some feedback that I was maybe not selling the brand I thought I was and I was like, wait a minute, I’m, I’m doing all the research, I’m doing all the stuff.

Unknown Speaker 16:36
But I’m blonde. And it was the height of the blonde jokes in the 90s. And I was like, Wait a second. And it was a bit of a wake up call. And I said, Okay, I have to sell against stereotypes. You know, I, you can’t change whatever people’s minds are, but you can sell them on the fact that you’re anything the stereotypical but it’s your job to sell it. And so that’s what I want people to walk away from in this book, is it the power is within you to create the impression others have?

Unknown Speaker 17:04
Did you ever think about just dyeing your hair?

Unknown Speaker 17:11
I mean, more dumb questions, George.

Unknown Speaker 17:14
I love it.

Unknown Speaker 17:18
How long did it take you to write the book? Well, I’m always interested in people’s process. So I’m interested in you got the idea? You wrote it? How like, did you write every day? Tom, tell us a little bit about that. So this one got fast track. So this is something that grew out of the other book, I had a bonus chapter of my first book that we gave away on personal branding. And I’ve been giving speeches on this, since that first book came out in 2019. And I went, What am I doing, I got to write this. So went back to the publisher with a proposal at the end of last year. And it’s literally coming out now. So this book was written in about seven months total, which is fast for me, I’m I’m a year plus kind of writer. So this one was really quick. Nice. And is it a daily practice that you have, or big time squeezing in where you can, you know, what I realized with this book is I write so much on airplanes, because I travel for my work. And I didn’t have that, you know, this was coming out of pandemic time and things of that nature. So I had to create space, I had to actually create that moment, because I’m also a binge writer. I know these writers that can do like a page a day or two pages, I can’t do that I need like six hours to sit down and type it out and kind of get an A grew. So I just had to create that space. And so wherever I can carve out a chunk of time, but it was absolutely weekly at a minimum most of the time a couple of times a week, because the publisher kept moving up the publication date, which was really exciting. Nice, short deadlines I expected. Yes.

Unknown Speaker 18:55
I worked. I work well with a deadline, though. I like a goal. So it was kind of like okay, all right. Here’s the number here’s where we gotta get. Yeah, well, kind of, to your point about, there’s never going to be a perfect time, I’m never going to be totally ready to do these things. So giving ourselves that, that that deadline, I think does help promote a sense of urgency. Absolutely. And I like the idea of

Unknown Speaker 19:19
knowing that there is a finite space, like, you know, with my even when I was in grad school, my dissertation on I gave myself a deadline. Because what I’ve found is part of my brand is I’m a bit of a perfectionist. So I have to be careful about that because it’ll never be ready if I’m not careful. So I’ve combatted that part of my own brand and said, Okay, here’s what I’m going to do. Here’s how we’re going to get this done. It’s going to be great. I’m going to get somebody else to read it, then it’s going to be better. I need this feedback. I have three different folks reading through it to help me with it. And then it went to the editors and they were awesome. So I am very much open to help along the way. I love

Unknown Speaker 20:00
It

Unknown Speaker 20:01
was Sandy, thank you so much for coming on. Where can people learn more about you? And where can they pick up a copy of sell yourself how to create live and sell a powerful personal brand. So they can find me at Dr. cindy.com DRC indy.com. And the book link is on there and it’s also sell yourself book.com. And then I’ve also got Orange Leaf consulting and the Orange Leaf academy.com. Excellent. Well, if you enjoyed as much as I did productive, send your appreciation and share today’s show with a friend who also appreciates good ideas, pick up a copy of sell yourself how to create live and sell a powerful personal brand. And go to Dr. cindy.com and sell yourself book.com Pick up your copies there. And thank you also mentioned a reader’s guide doctor. Yes, absolutely. So if you buy it and you can find it any major bookseller as well and independent booksellers. But if you get it, you can actually register that book on our website. And you can access a reader guide plus a bunch of other material or you can buy it directly through the website and you’ll get access right away. And we want to make sure everybody has lots of extra goodies to help them to craft their own personal brands. Awesome.

Unknown Speaker 21:13
So again, go to Dr. cindy.com, or sell yourself book.com and pick up a copy and then register for that extra readers guide and all the other great stuff and get started in crafting and selling your personal brand so you could turn people into advocates, and live a wonderfully happy life. Thanks. Good. Dr. Sandy. Thank you so much for having me, George. And until next time, remember, do your part by doing your best

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