Overcoming Oppression with Sola Mahfouz and Malaina Kapoor

george grombacher 0:02
Sola Mahfooz and Malaina Kapoor are the co authors of defined dreams story of how a Stanford student helped tell the story of an Afghan girls fight for education and independence. Welcome, sola and Melina. Thank you said he’d have you both on tell us a little bit about your personal lives. I guess it’s a lot to unpack because this is an incredible story. So maybe, maybe tell us just how you got together?

Sola Mahfouz 0:35
Well, sure, I can start.

Malaina Kapoor 0:38
So I mean, I’m sure we’ll get into Solas amazing story. But sola and I were first connected, actually, in the middle of COVID, during the pandemic, so we weren’t able to meet in person for a long time. But sola started me started telling me stories from her life, and I started writing them. And that became the basis for this book, define dreams. And, you know, I think the power of this book is that on one hand, it’s Sora, solo story of how she was able to secretly educate herself and escape Afghanistan. But it’s also the story now, of millions of girls and women who are in Afghanistan, who are being denied an education and who are living lives. So similar to the one that we chronicle in the book.

george grombacher 1:28
I can remember, that was one of the really terrible, there are so many terrible things about about the last 20 years with, with what’s going on in Afghanistan, from my perspective, as an American, but certainly one of the most painful ones for me was learning about how, what you just described how women and girls were no longer going to be able to be to receive an education. So I know that that’s certainly that information made its way to a lot of people in the United States. Has any of that changed?

Sola Mahfouz 2:05
I mean, I think it’s important to remember really, that what is happening, it’s not 20 years, it’s really goes back to the time of, you know, the resistance that started against the Soviets, and that would lead to the civil then the Civil War, and then the Taliban. And it really what we see today is really the shadow of you know, what happened in those times, you know, you know, I, you know, define Jim is, you know, the story of Afghanistan, and also the story of my life over the decades. And, for example, and it was not like that all the time, of course, you know, my mom, my mom, but my mother, for example, went to school become a professor Kabul University. And then the Civil War started near the Taliban, everything that she had was lost. And then when, in 2001, when Taliban were ousted by the, by the US and its allies, the schools were reopened. And, you know, my mother was like, This generation of kids are not going to be uneducated. And she would often say, Do you know how it feels to have a mother who’s educated, but see her kids raised and educated. And so, but that came to an abrupt end, when I was 11 years old, I was forced to start going to school, a group of men came to our door and threatened us if we continue to go into school. And so from that day on, the restriction on my life only continue to increase. And I was allowed to leave home. Like, over the years, as I start to grow up, I left home only a couple of times a year. And whenever I did, I had to wear the suffocating protocol that kind of led me from head to toe. But you know, meanwhile, it was not the same for the boys. You know, like my brothers were going to school. And they were like, academically thriving, and they had purpose in life. And I felt jealous, and I had so many questions of why I can’t do the same. And so so it’s like, you know, this is like, and then I started learning English. And then like math and science, and when I was 16, I did not even know how to add and subtract. But then from that, on, like, using Khan Academy, in two years, I was able to go to study called calculus and physics. And finally, you know, there were many, many obstacles along the way, but I came to the US and now I’m a quantum computing researcher at Tufts University. So I think this you know, in defined dreams, even though, though my education story, but it’s really a reflection of, you know, what woman goes through even at a time when, you know, the US was still there when, you know, there was still this perception like you know, there are women rights, there’s all those things. So if you know, one person can go through so much more, just something great. The basic in those times, then we cannot even imagine what person can go through now, when everything is just dark.

george grombacher 5:10
So me it’s terrible, and really difficult for me to get my brain around that. And for as, as a parent, to think about it for your mom’s perspective, she was a professor, for goodness sakes, and then all of a sudden, she’s not. And not only that, but no information to learning or anything like that. And she has to watch her daughter only leave the house occasionally, over the course of years, the Presidents have of the Taliban. Obviously, it’s a group that is so impactful that they stop an entire society from educating women. How many people are we talking about? We’re talking about hundreds of 1000s 10s of 1000s 1000s.

Malaina Kapoor 5:59
So there are millions of girls who are being denied in education right now in Afghanistan. And then of course, there are so many more restrictions on on women and girls. I think what’s important to think about when we think about what happened in 2021, when the Taliban came back, is that initially, there were all these discussions, especially in the United States, about this idea that maybe this is a new Taliban, a Taliban to Dotto, that is going to be more of a government that wants to integrate with the world order. But as soon as the world’s attention turned away, it became clear that this was the same follow up on a follow up on the banned girls education after the sixth grade at the Taliban that banned women from going to work or from leaving the home without a male guardian. And what we’ve seen is in the last two and a half years, that the Taliban has instituted over 75 Different edicts that are targeted directly at women and girls. And those are sweeping edicts like the ones banning school, but they’re also these very specific bands that really eat away at the identity of women things like just a couple of weeks ago, the Taliban banned women from calling into television shows or radio shows. So now women’s voices are are gone from the airwaves. You know, women over the summer were banned from going to beauty salons, which sounds trivial until you think about the fact that it was the last place in Afghanistan, for women to gather for women to make money. And for women to experience something that would, you know, set them apart, remind them of their individual identities. And that’s the really profound restriction that we’re continuing to see week after week in the country.

Sola Mahfouz 7:42
And it’s also very interesting is that, you know, even yesterday, I was talking to some of my nieces and honest on and they were telling me that, you know, they still can go to like a madrasah. But yeah, they can’t go to like a school. And it’s so like, I was just thinking about it. So are they really like, against woman stepping out of the house or a call after sixth grade? Or is there like, really against the education that the liberal education that, you know, maybe help them resist them? In some ways. So I think that’s also really, really like, important to really, to think because this generation, they’re going to make this will force them to, to not go to school, but then yeah, eventually they’re going to be accepted as a normal, so they’re not going to be like this resistance to this, you know, those ideology that suppress them and oppress them.

george grombacher 8:36
So, you believe that that is the motivation of IIDX have not allowed. So, what what was it that changed for you and your situation at age 16? You’re not able to add or subtract, but not anymore. Now. Now I’m going to get this information. Yeah, so,

Sola Mahfouz 9:00
you know, when I was 14, I really I had, like, so many questions, like, why am I here? Like, what’s the meaning of life? What’s my purpose? And it’s like, everyday was the same rhythm, you know, just even I would like told my cousin like, you just like, cook clean, and, you know, watch TV. So like, this was like, the rhythm of life. And, and I will, I couldn’t like see beyond like, how could this lead to anything? Like, what’s the meaning of my life? What’s, why I’m here, and everything. And then I saw me and my brother, they would wake up for Google to go to school, they would like to start they were learning English to take the IELTS exam to go to Europe, and all of that. So I, you know, I didn’t have that. And then that time, you know, my grandfather was a huge influence on me, even though he was not alive. But he had like so many saying that like, that was still alive in our houses. And it was, you know, if you know, English, it’s like opening a window to the world. And I just felt like the world around me was like dark and chaotic. You know that Um, there was a lot of political turmoil, there was, you know, the Taliban were like, always there was like Target killing, there was suicide bombing exploding and around the world to you know that there was so much happening. And so that’s when I was like, I have all the I will start doing it, like, at least that’s, that’s a path. And in two years initially, like I would watch for hours and hours, BBC or CNN and I would understand a word or two. But you know, that was enough just to keep going. And then in 2016, our, you know, my brother was going to Pakistan for a medical reason. And I asked him, just bring me anything that’s English. I watching all the time was news. And already there’s water, not me. But I was living and there was war on TV. And so, you know, among other things, he brought me a Time Magazine. And as I was flipping through the pages, I come across Sal Khan, a Khan Academy. And immediately I felt like, this is what I wanted. So about learning anything, any like math, science, anything. And so I immediately looked up on my laptop. But when I looked up, it’s okay, there’s the first advertisement of algebra, the beauty of algebra. And I overheard conversation from my brothers and my cousins and how they were like, they will talk about math and how hard it was and how like, you know, one equation, it will take pages and pages to solve it. And you can just like one line of answer, and it was just so baffling to me, like, how can that be, you know, and so, but I felt like, Oh, this is not this might not be for me, because it’s too hard. I don’t know. Like, I know, just the word algebra. I don’t know what that means. What it is. And so you know, I can, I felt disappointed, because I was like, this might be too hard. But then after two to a few days, like curiosity to the better of me, and I asked my younger brother, I was like, You know what it comes after addition and subtraction, because that’s, I remembered knowing when I was in school, and he was like, telling me, oh, it’s fraction. And so I google that not Google, like I kind of adding a search and there was fraction. And well, I ought to go back to learn my addition, subtraction more properly. But I started with just, you know, that’s where I started. And I was just, I was just obsessed. You know, I would like, every evening, when I was not doing math, I was thinking about math, and like waking up sleeping ever like, and so that’s how it started. And

Malaina Kapoor 12:38
in the book, we also write about just the incredible obstacles that Salah had to overcome to access that knowledge even on the internet. So you know, I grew up in the US and I used Khan Academy. But of course, Solas experience was so different, she had to use this extremely slow dial up internet connection in the middle of the night, because during the day, she was required to cook and clean as a member of her family. And as a daughter and a girl in her family. And even after she spent years going from not speaking English, and not knowing how to add and subtract to being at this collegiate level, she still had to find a way out of the country. And that proved really to be one of the greatest obstacles. Because she had self educated herself. There was no way for her to prove her education if she wanted to apply to colleges, or try and get a visa. And so first, she tried to go to the local Ministry of Education to get some sort of certification. But the officials there wouldn’t even look her in the eyes because she was a woman, let alone give her the proper paperwork. And then she tried to take the GED. But that exam wasn’t offered anywhere in Afghanistan or anywhere in neighboring countries. And so the LSAT the exam that so many of us here in the US take for college really became the only chance at a way out. And so in the book we write about how the LSAT was only offered in Pakistan. And so sola had to cross one of the most dangerous borders in the world in order to get into Pakistan, a border where people are often beaten with electric cables where men and women are separated where you need to take multiple vehicles just to get across and then she managed to get the last testing slot in Karachi Pakistan to take the LSAT and that was just the first step you know on her journey to get out

george grombacher 14:30
your Were your parents supportive, supportive of you learning on on online? Or this was was it a secret?

Sola Mahfouz 14:39
No, it can’t be secret for them because without their support, I would never be able to do that because you still have to like internet you know, you have to get internet there’s so many even you’re learning from home, you still need a lot of things. And so yeah, my younger brother especially, and my mother, for example, and this was like a safe space so that You know?

Malaina Kapoor 15:02
Yeah, but easier for

Sola Mahfouz 15:03
them to support?

george grombacher 15:05
What would have happened if somebody had found out?

Malaina Kapoor 15:10
Me know other girls and women at the time where we’re really being targeted, right?

Sola Mahfouz 15:14
Yeah. I mean, when I, when I was going to school, there was another girl with with us. And she, like before three days? The not sorry, three days, but just for a few days. You know, there was someone following her up. And then she had we did not know, but she had to stop, and then we didn’t see her again. So yeah, I mean, I think what’s important is like when Taliban are also in 2001. And then they start making like this very strong comeback into his advice. And now that I read history, really, they created a education ministry, which really was about disrupting education, about like disrupting girls education, of like targeting teachers or teaching female students, schools. Pair like father and girls. So I think there was like this united effort to really like, yeah, disrupt girls education back then.

george grombacher 16:16
I remember being nervous when I sat and took the LSAT. But you have to cross one of the most dangerous borders in the world. You have to, I can’t even imagine the steps that it actually took to get there, you get the last seat, you sit down, you’re like, Oh, my goodness, I am freaking out right now. Or were you just like, Okay, I’m gonna nail this.

Sola Mahfouz 16:37
No, I think for me, it really was, I never, like I never thought I will become to that point that, you know, like, here, I’m sitting here, I’m taking the test. And this is like this next step of, you know, like, that world that I wanted to live in, become will become a reality. And so I even though, like, each step was this in the dark that I was taking in the dark, I did not know what will be at the end of it. But I was just like, keep taking those steps. Because I was like, if I give up on any, I knew it’s not going to be easy. I knew that from from the beginning. I knew it’s not going to be easy. But, but but that became the purpose and the meaning of my life. And it’s just like, what shaped me like display the determination really? Just to wake up every morning and do it? And, and yeah, so I think that in I was like, if I give up on this, what I will be able to stand up for. So yeah, like, I still can’t understand the mindset of myself at that time. Because, you know, now I think, oh, you know, I think hardness or this and that. But then I was just like, you know, like, Okay, I’m gonna run, even if I fall, okay. Yeah,

george grombacher 17:56
I think it’s, it’s obviously, it’s obviously amazing. You mentioned when you were younger, 14 or so, or 15, or 16. And you’re making the decision to start doing this, and you’re like, oh, is this for me? And then at each step, it became your your life’s purpose, and moving into the darkness and each step into the unknown. And we can all have experienced how scary that is, but yours on a different level. And, you know, we all struggle with self doubt, and uncertainty, and you know, and then we can be lazy, or we can procrastinate on things. How do you do that? Now? You’re living in the United States? Do you still?

Sola Mahfouz 18:44
Yeah, I think I learned the time. Yes, I do feel there are times like, oh, you know that, that, of course, I think that the self doubt comes, you know, am I doing the right thing? Or will I be able to do this thing, but a lot of the time, I actually go back to my dad’s house who would like, you know, I will go to my brother’s library. And I would pick up a book. And like, the first in the first days when I started learning English, and I would like this one book that I remember. And I just like looking at it, I’m like, I couldn’t only understand like the ABC of like, just written. And this whole thing, I understood nothing. And like, in that time, I thought I was like, will there be one day that I will be able to understand this thing? So I think going from that to not knowing anything in yet still, like, keep doing it. You know, I’m it sounds like okay, if I can come from that. It’s not that I obviously like I will succeed in what I was like, Okay, I will just do the part of today and see what happens. So that’s how I

george grombacher 19:48
appreciate that. So when y’all decided to write this book, how was that process, like the actual writing process and sharing ideas? is.

Malaina Kapoor 20:02
Yeah, I think we were very fortunate in that we started out on this book project, and we didn’t even know each other, we were introduced by a mutual friend, but really, you know, Salah was telling me the stories of her entire life. And that’s not something that can happen in a vacuum. And so I, I also told her about my life. And we really were fortunate to develop this incredibly close friendship as a result of that. And I think also, you know, we started writing the book in 2020. And so we thought this would be really soulless story. And it would be a difficult story to tell, but also one that ended on a very inspiring note. And of course, it is, is an incredible, really inspiring story. But it has a new tenor, after what’s happened in the country in 2021. The fact that there are now millions of girls and women who are experiencing restrictions. And I think something that was important to us was to highlight the idea that, you know, so many journalistic perspectives of Afghan women really erase do erase their identity, paint them as victims, and we are so rarely given the opportunity to see inside, you know, through that burqa and understand, what are the actual lives of women and girls in Afghanistan, like, what are their hopes and dreams? But also, what do they do for fun? What kind of music do they listen to? What’s the relationship between a generation of daughters now who is fighting for freedom every day, and a generation of mothers who’s known what that freedom can feel like, but fears for their daughters, you know, in this new government, and this new time, these are the questions that are really important for us to explore in the book. And I think it was our closeness, our friendship, and also our similar cultural backgrounds that throughout the writing process really allowed us to express that in defined dreams.

george grombacher 21:59
I love it. I’m sure it’s been really, really well received. What is next for both of you?

Sola Mahfouz 22:08
Well, yeah, I’m currently working on a novel, which is that Anna Hornstein and it really explore it’s an epic novel. And, for example, in 2001, you know, this new awareness standard was created, there was this two generations, you know, in some sense, this was the story of a wellness plan. There are people who got globally connected, educated, laner, like me, my brother, and many, many like that, but then there were also, you know, generation who become radicalized. And who were the people who were on the streets, the suicide bombers, the attacker on the school, you know, the, the threat, the people who are threatening, who are going to go to school, and how the dynamics of those two generation has were shaping and reshaping of Aniston. And it’s like, at the end of it, who wins, you know, it’s this generation wins. And it’s also about going back to history, because one thing I learned in life is that, you know, deep crisis has long memories, you know, our president is not just just randomly it emerges, it really goes. It’s been shaped by the past. So really kind of understanding of Afghanistan, like in the context of the whole world, politics and, and also in the history of not just from 2001. But going back to even the 1950s and see how it has been shaped. So that’s one thing I’m working on.

george grombacher 23:44
I love it.

Malaina Kapoor 23:45
And I would say sola and I are also in this next phase of the book, really thinking about continuing to advocate for awareness around this issue. So it’s Women’s History Month right now. And we’re working on campaigns to highlight the stories of Afghan women, but also build curriculum that teachers can use in their classrooms to really educate young people in the United States about what’s happening. So that’s always top of mind for us. And then for me, I’m a junior at Stanford. So finishing my education, I was just saying it’s finals week right now. So working through that, but I’m also starting a thesis that’s really exploring questions that came up for me in the process of writing this book, which is, how do governments use the repression of women in order to consolidate state control? And why is it that there are so many dictatorships in the world that oppress women and girls so that they can obtain power and how does that repression end up coercing men and transforming societies? I think that’s a really fundamental question and look searching For answers could illuminate a lot about what’s happened in Afghanistan, what’s happening in Afghanistan, but also what’s happening in the region in the world.

george grombacher 25:09
I love it. Well, so am Elena. Thank you so much for coming on. Where can people learn more about you? And where can they get their copy of defiant dreams?

Malaina Kapoor 25:19
Thank you for having us. People can buy to find dreams on Amazon or anywhere books are sold or go to define dreams.com And for me, personally, I’m at Melina Kapoor on Twitter and Instagram.

Sola Mahfouz 25:35
And also we started this campaign called hashtag my define dream. And it is about you know, a person who can who can post his or his define her defined dream but also, you know, what’s the defined dreams where are upon standing and for the girls in Afghanistan and how they can support it. Because one thing that when you talk to Afghan women and girls in Palestine, they will tell you just don’t look away from our story. You know, keep just don’t normalize what’s happening there. So something Yeah, to hash the tweeting or like on Instagram posting, I think that will also help.

george grombacher 26:20
Excellent. If you enjoyed this as much as I did show, sola and Melina your appreciation, share today’s show with a friend who also appreciates good ideas. Get your copy of defiant dreams wherever you buy your books, and certainly Amazon you can go to defiant dreams.com to check out a little bit more about it. Find Elena on Instagram and Twitter. I’ll link those in the notes and use the hashtag my defiant dream and start building on the conversation. Thanks good. solum Lena. Thank you. Till next time, remember, do your part and doing your best

george grombacher 16:00
So if I want my iPhone, and my Tesla and my Bitcoin to work, we need to get the metal out of the ground.

Pierre Leveille 16:07
Absolutely. Without it, we cannot do it.

george grombacher 16:13
Why? Why is there a Why has production been going down.

Pierre Leveille 16:21
Because the large mines that are producing most of the copper in the world, the grades are going down slowly they’re going there, they’re arriving near the end of life. So and of life of mines in general means less production. And in the past, at least 15 years, the exploration expenditure for copper were pretty low, because the price of copper was low. And when the price is low, companies are tending to not invest more so much in exploration, which is what we see today. It’s it’s, it’s not the way to look at it. Because nobody 15 years ago was able to predict that there would be a so massive shortage, or it’s so massive demand coming. But in the past five years, or let’s say since the since 10 years, we have seen that more and more coming. And then the by the time you react start exploring and there’s more money than then ever that is putting in put it in expression at the moment for copper at least. And what we see is that the it takes time, it could take up to 2025 years between the time you find a deposit that it gets in production. So but but the year the time is counted. So it’s it’s very important to so you will see company reopening old mines, what it will push also, which is not bad, it will force to two, it will force to find a it will force to find ways of recalibrating customer, you know the metals, that will be more and more important.

george grombacher 18:07
So finding, okay, so for lack of a better term recycling metals that are just sitting around somewhere extremely important. Yeah. And then going and going back to historic minds that maybe for lack of technology, or just lack of will or reasons, but maybe now because there’s such a demand, there’s an appetite to go back to those.

Pierre Leveille 18:33
Yes, but there will be a lot of failures into that for many reasons. But the ones that will be in that will resume mining it’s just going to be a short term temporary solution. No it’s it’s not going to be you need to find deposit that will that will operate 50 years you know at least it’s 25 to 50 years at least and an old mind that you do in production in general it’s less than 10 years.

george grombacher 19:03
Got it. Oh there we go. Up here. People are ready for your difference making tip What do you have for them

Pierre Leveille 19:14
You mean an investment or

george grombacher 19:17
whatever you’re into, you’ve got so much life experience with raising a family and doing business all over the world and having your kids go to school in Africa so a tip on copper or whatever you’re into.

Pierre Leveille 19:34
But there’s two things I like to see and I was telling my children many times and I always said you know don’t focus on what will bring you specifically money don’t think of Getting Rich. Think of doing what you what you like, what you feel your your your your your, you know you have been born to do so use your most you skills, do what you like, do what you wet well, and good things will happen to you. And I can see them grow in their life. And I can tell you that this is what happens. And sometimes you have setback like I had recently. But if we do things properly, if we do things that we like, and we liked that project, we were very passionate about that project, not only me, all my team, and if we do things properly, if we do things correctly, good things will happen. And we will probably get the project back had to go forward or we will find another big project that will be the launch of a new era. So that’s my most important tip in life. Do what you like, do it with your best scale and do it well and good things will happen.

george grombacher 20:49
Pierre Leveille 21:03
Thank you. I was happy to be with you to today.

george grombacher 21:06
Damn, tell us the websites and where where people can connect and find you.

Pierre Leveille 21:13
The it’s Deep South resources.com. So pretty simple.

george grombacher 21:18
Perfect. Well, if you enjoyed this as much as I did show up here your appreciation and share today’s show with a friend who also appreciate good ideas, go to deep south resources, calm and learn all about what they’re working on and track their progress.

Pierre Leveille 21:32
Thanks. Thanks, have a nice day.

george grombacher 21:36
And until next time, keep fighting the good fight. We’re all in this together.