NonFiction Writing with Stephanie Chandler

george grombacher 0:01
Stephanie Chandler is the CEO of the non fiction authors Association, as well as the nonfiction authors Association. Conference. Welcome to the show, Stephanie.

Stephanie Chandler 0:13
Thank you,. It’s great to be here.

george grombacher 0:14
Yeah, excited to have you on. Tell us a little about your personal lives more about your work, why you do what you do?

Stephanie Chandler 0:22
Yeah, you know, back in 2003, I left the Silicon Valley and I wanted to be a writer and didn’t know how to make a living writing. So I opened a brick and mortar bookstore, near Sacramento, California, and everyone thought I had lost my mind. My plan was to write novels in the back office. And I’ll tell you, first of all, opening a bookstore is not nearly as romantic as it sounds. And I quickly discovered I was a terrible fiction writer. And I thought, oh, my gosh, what have I done? And so I, my friends were coming up from the Silicon Valley, because they couldn’t believe I left a six figure job to basically sell $4 paperbacks, right? You’re like, what are you doing? And how do we do it too. And I’m so grateful for that. Because they inspired my first book, I realized, oh, I can teach and write nonfiction. And I always really wanted to teach actually set out to be an English teacher. So I wrote my first book, it was a business startup guide. And that led to starting a website and growing the traffic and getting a book deal and finding an agent and selling more books. And I was able to sell that stupid store to one of the employees. And then I was doing some consulting on how to write books. And I was speaking at writers conferences. And I started my own publishing company while I was still under contract with the traditional publishers. And along the way, I’m speaking at all these writers conferences, and I’m like, Why isn’t anybody talking to those of us who write nonfiction? Right? Most writers, groups, writers, conferences are very fiction centric, maybe a little bit of children’s books, maybe a little bit of memoir. But I went to a conference once where I was the only business book writer out of 300 people. And I thought, Well, where are my people? You know? So that led to starting the nonfiction writers conference in 2010. And we did that all online and back then we weren’t using Zoom. We were doing teleseminar George. So if you can imagine, we had people dialing into teleseminar lines live for three days straight. And they loved it. And afterward, they would say, how do we keep in touch. And so three years later, 2013 I started the nonfiction authors Association, because they saw a need, there was no community for nonfiction writers. And one thing I love about nonfiction writers, a lot of us are entrepreneurial. But a lot of people really just want to make a difference in the world. And I think that’s a really special thing to be part of. And so all of that kind of fueled this twisty turny path that got me here today. Nice.

george grombacher 3:14
Well, what a twisty turny path, indeed, mildly surprised to, to hear that you started a bookstore with the intention of writing books in the back room. But you didn’t know that you weren’t a very good writer.

Stephanie Chandler 3:29
Yeah, I was a terrible fiction writer. Terrible, but when you spend your whole life wanting to write, like I was the kid on the playground, reading poems, and, you know, that’s what you think you’re supposed to do is write fiction. And it turns out, you can have writing skills that can be applied to other genres beyond fiction.

george grombacher 3:49
When did when did Amazon become ubiquitous? In terms of like self publishing and stuff like that? Pretty

Stephanie Chandler 3:57
early on. I mean, I was supporting Amazon selling software to them back in, you know, 2001 and two, and started selling books on their website as a bookstore owner. And I would say within the next five years, it just became all about Amazon. That’s where we we believe that somewhere around 70% of all books are sold through Amazon today. And then, of course, they took over their own, they started their own publishing imprint, you can publish directly through Amazon. So I will say most of us authors and publishers have a love hate relationship with them for a whole bunch of reasons. But they really came on strong very soon in that process. Yeah.

george grombacher 4:45
And now we have artificial intelligence as well. So it’s

Stephanie Chandler 4:50
creating all kinds of issues.

george grombacher 4:53
Who would have thought that writing books is, is being for lack of a better term distance that didn’t change. So incredibly over a 20 year period.

Stephanie Chandler 5:03
Absolutely. You’re so right about that. And then, you know, back to Amazon, they started the Kindle. Right? The Kindle became and we had ebooks before that, but they weren’t widely adopted. So when they brought out the Kindle, and I don’t know your what year that was, but that they really have led the charge, and now they’re trying to keep AI out of books, and it’s going to be impossible. Yeah,

george grombacher 5:26
you’re right. I don’t, it doesn’t seem to make any sense that you would try to keep something out that is just kind of everywhere. So. But that’s probably a story for another day. All right. So you discovered that you are a wonderful nonfiction writer, and you started a conference and used technology that I wasn’t familiar with until just a minute ago, you said teleseminar. So now, obviously, Zoom is another one of those ubiquitous things. Why are people coming to you today? Why why do people come to the nonfiction Association, nonfiction, all nonfiction authors Association today?

Stephanie Chandler 6:05
Because same reason I started it, there’s no community for nonfiction writers, and they might go to their local writers group or go to a, you know, big Writers Conference, but they’re like, where are my people? Right? So writing nonfiction is very entrepreneurial. We have a lot of professionals in our community, speakers, consultants, physicians, attorneys, you know, people like therapists, medical professionals. And so when they go to their little local writers group, and everybody’s talking about their fantasy novels, they’re they can’t even relate. Right? So a lot of times, they’re using a book as a business card to grow the business. Or they have entrepreneurial goals around their books. So our community kind of addresses those needs and helps them navigate that whole process from writing the manuscript to getting it published to marketing and and making it profitable, because very few authors make money off books. That’s just the hard truth. Is

george grombacher 7:09
that that is a hard reality. Is that also a hard truth? Does it need to be a truth? Or is that just sort of is right now, statistically,

Stephanie Chandler 7:20
I mean, most self published authors will never sell 300 copies, it’s so sad. So part of what we aim to do is really help authors learn how to market their books, and how to use them to get speaking engagements, get media attention, get clients, right, open doors, build courses, around their books, build, consulting, and coaching programs around their books. So it’s so different than what most fiction authors are doing.

george grombacher 7:54
This the the entrepreneurial opportunities, so folks that are already accustomed to doing marketing, selling, having a clientele can then use some of those same skills to translate to making money with a book, not just by selling copies of the book. That’s

Stephanie Chandler 8:15
exactly right. And it’s really helpful. If you have some of that background. Not everyone does. I mean, even even a lot of our high end professionals don’t have a background in marketing, right. So they’re still having to learn step one, of content marketing, and building a website and just putting up Amazon ads, all the things that go into marketing a book.

george grombacher 8:41
And I think it’s a fascinating thing, because I, I fall into that category of a professional who has then written books, and you do run into a whole new, it’s just a whole new, brave, brave, brave new world. What is the point of this kind of a thing? What it so I see immense value in being able to go and have community and bounce ideas off of people who have already done it. And obviously, I’m sure that the association itself provides a lot of programming and content and resources. So I, I see immense value with all of that. How, how do most people want to get a book deal and to get an agent a

Stephanie Chandler 9:25
lot of people do. And we definitely provide guidance on that. I will say from my own experience, having been both self published traditionally published, I left traditional publishing on purpose, because it can be so frustrating for a whole bunch of reasons. You know, generally you’ll earn around $1 book publishers, it’s a myth that they’re going to take on all the marketing they still want the author’s doing the marketing. You lose all control over your work, right. It generally takes them a year to get a book out. I had one publisher call me right before we went to press with my book and say, We want you To remove a chapter, we don’t care which one we need to cut costs. I mean, a lot writer wants to hear that. I don’t know which one that was super, super disappointing. And I swore I would never let that happen again. So those were and I had book covers I don’t like and titles change. So and the other thing GA is people aren’t really buying their books in bookstores anymore. So books replacement, doesn’t matter the way it did 10 years ago. So self publishing is become so much more appealing for all those reasons. But that I mean, I get get it that people want that as a goal. I certainly wanted to be able to get a book deal. And I did it several times. And it’s a it’s a personal goal that I’m glad that I did. But I always say don’t, you don’t have to put all your eggs in that basket anymore.

george grombacher 10:54
When if I’m being honest. And you were to ask me, Do you want to book deal? Do you want to book agent? I don’t know that I’ve ever really thought about that. And if I were to say, yes, it would be out of vanity or some kind of an ego thing. Because I like to think that I’ve written books for the right reasons, I’m interested in getting my message out and I enjoy writing. And I want to earn money from the sale of books or use my book to to to earn money. So is that common?

Stephanie Chandler 11:29
Yes, that’s very common. Because our motivations are different, right? And so again, with that entrepreneurial focus, if you’ve been in business for a while, you have the sense that oh, wait a minute, I don’t want to give up control. I don’t want to earn $1 book I, you know, I don’t want you I’m very type a like, I want full control of my content. I don’t want anyone to change my titles or tell me to take a chapter out of my books. So yeah, that’s very, very common today. Yeah,

george grombacher 11:58
for sure. I would be I would bristle at the idea of any of those things happening. So I would not like that. You earn $1, a book for the privilege of who knows? All right. So here we are in, in this 2024. And we’ve got AI and we’ve got all the opportunities to Self Publish? Is it a good time to be writing books? Is it a good time to be an author, always

Stephanie Chandler 12:28
a good time to be an author it is, in some ways, there are bigger challenges just because of the sheer volume of books being produced. Now, I mean, it’s been estimated that there’s a million new titles coming out of here. And it’s, it’s astonishing, really, my experiences that a lot of them still aren’t being produced very well. And, you know, from the self publishing standpoint, and as a professional in the business world, you really want high production quality, right? You want excellent editing, great cover design. So all of those factors will help a book stand out above the noise that’s out there. And that’s also why we need solid marketing plans. Because just because a book is on Amazon does not mean it will be found. In fact, it will get buried very, very quickly, if you’re not driving people to that book.

george grombacher 13:24
And All right, so I love a good plan. Let’s let’s take a huge step back your advice to an author, we need a marketing plan. What are some of these other plans or things that I’ve maybe never considered or thought about?

Stephanie Chandler 13:41
From a marketing perspective?

george grombacher 13:43
Just kind of all of it I’m, yeah, I’ve written I’ve got, you know, an outline of a book. I’ve done a lot of it. So I’m actually going to do it. I’m not just I’m not just book curious. I’m going to do this.

Stephanie Chandler 13:57
Well, I will say one of the big mistakes I see authors make is not first identify who’s the target audience for the book. So and you know this, it’s true in marketing, right? No product is for everyone. No book is for everyone. Business is for everyone. And it’s easier to stand out if you really narrow your focus and netlink. Life Coaching is a great example. I was at this business meeting once and it was one of those where people went around and room and introduce themselves. And there were like three life coaches. Right. And I help people get unstuck. And then this woman stands up and she goes, Well, I’m a life coach for baby boomers who want to lose weight. Well, let me tell you at the end of that meeting, she was surrounded by people because she had a very clear niche target audience. And I think that’s just a great focus for books in general. There’s a million leadership Books a Million start your business books, a million self help books, how is your book going to stand out and be different than the other books? It is, I mean, the number one issue to address? And then we take that and figure out how do you build your platform common term in publishing, which really just means your audience. So this is why publishers want authors that have a platform because they know they’ll sell books. So your audience is going to come from maybe a high traffic website, or a social media following, or you write a column for a big publication, or I love email marketing, maybe you just got a large email list. Those types of things are what is going to help you sell your book, when it becomes a reality.

george grombacher 15:40
It makes sense that the publisher would want somebody to have a big audience. That certainly would make make make make make life easier. So I’m, of course kind of making a joke. All right. So it makes more sense to be a life coach for baby boomers who want to lose weight than it is to help people get unstuck, that that certainly makes sense to me. Is there a sense of, of the costs in time and money to effectively market a book?

Stephanie Chandler 16:13
Yeah, so the tricky thing about book marketing is, because our profits are so low on books, it’s hard to spend a lot of money, right, if you want to go hire a publicist, you’re going to spend 2500 to $3,500 a month, and you will never earn that back in book sells, it’s just impossible. Unless your name is James clear, or, you know, John Grisham or some fake name. So really what I recommend for authors hire a virtual assistant, virtual assistants or administrative professionals that work on a contract basis, and you can hire someone for as few as five hours a month or 50 hours a month, that helps research podcasts and send your pitches out for you manage your blog content, help with your social media, set up your Amazon ads. And so especially for those of us who are really busy, I mean, there’s things that I don’t want to do myself, that I will procrastinate about, because it’s not my strength. So therefore, I bring in a virtual assistant who goes out and does the research and pitches me to the time on your podcasts, I mean, my assistant found your podcast, sending the pitch, and that’s how it happens. So I think that’s the most effective way to start implementing your marketing plans. And you know, these assistants costs 20 to $80 an hour, depending on their experience, but for a couple 100 bucks a month to have somebody keeping your marketing wheels turning is so much a better use of your money.

george grombacher 17:48
Yeah, yeah. How much does uh, I guess it all kinds of kind of depends. Do you know how much the average author makes per book, if they’re self publishing, if you’re self

Stephanie Chandler 18:01
publishing, and in the nonfiction space, I mean, generally, let’s say your book costs $5 to print, right, and Amazon takes 55% off your cover price. So if your book is $20 Amazon’s gonna pay you $8 I’m not good at math. $8 that, right? And then you deduct your $5 costs, you just made $3 a copy. But if you flip that around, and you’re out at a speaking engagement, and your your books cost you $5 You sell them for 20 years now earning 15 a copy? So always.

george grombacher 19:11
That doesn’t happen forever. It’s definitely it’s definitely on my end right there. Sorry about that. Stephanie. Hey,

Stephanie Chandler 19:17
it’s technology. It’s what happens.

george grombacher 19:19
How about All right, we cut off. We were just talking about how it makes you can bring your books to an event, and you’re selling them for five bucks versus so if you don’t mind. It’s kind of pick up that thought whenever you’re ready. Yeah,

Stephanie Chandler 19:37
so when you’re selling your own books at an event, maybe you’ve just done a speaking engagement, you’re selling them for 20 bucks, it cost you $5 there, you’re making $15 a sale, and you’re making more when you sell them in bulk, maybe to a corporation or a nonprofit that gives them away or we’re you know, however they distribute your book. So it’s always better to sell direct If you’re going to make more money, but also if you compare that with traditional publishing, let’s say you traditionally publish you earn $1 a book on a retail sale, you want to take your own books to a speaking engagement. Generally your traditional publisher makes a profit off the author too. So they’re going to sell you your own book for $10 a copy it’s It’s infuriating, quite frankly. Yeah,

george grombacher 20:22
I think that that’s that’s the right word for it was definitely thank you so much for coming on. Where can people learn more about you? How can they learn about the association as well as the conference?

Stephanie Chandler 20:34
Yeah, thank you, I nonfiction authors, association.com and nonfiction writers conference.com. This is our 14th year the conference happens every day by zoom. It’s now all completely it’s been online for all these years. And then I’m pretty active in our social media. So check us out on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, I love to hear from listeners, then I would love to see some of your folks out in our community.

george grombacher 21:00
Excellent. Well, if you enjoyed as much as I did show stuff in your appreciation, share today’s show with a friend who also appreciates good ideas. Give me the websites again, Stephanie

Stephanie Chandler 21:09
nonfiction authors, association.com, nonfiction writers conference.com.

george grombacher 21:15
Excellent. We will link all of those in the notes of the show. Check it out, go to the social media links as well. I will list those in the notes and whatever stage you are in the process if you are thinking about it, or if you already have some that are published, but you’re experiencing some of the frustrations Stephanie has been talking about could be a great opportunity to get the additional knowledge you need or the support whatever it might be. Thanks. Good, Stephanie. Thank you, George. Till next time, remember, do your part by doing your best

george grombacher 16:00
So if I want my iPhone, and my Tesla and my Bitcoin to work, we need to get the metal out of the ground.

Pierre Leveille 16:07
Absolutely. Without it, we cannot do it.

george grombacher 16:13
Why? Why is there a Why has production been going down.

Pierre Leveille 16:21
Because the large mines that are producing most of the copper in the world, the grades are going down slowly they’re going there, they’re arriving near the end of life. So and of life of mines in general means less production. And in the past, at least 15 years, the exploration expenditure for copper were pretty low, because the price of copper was low. And when the price is low, companies are tending to not invest more so much in exploration, which is what we see today. It’s it’s, it’s not the way to look at it. Because nobody 15 years ago was able to predict that there would be a so massive shortage, or it’s so massive demand coming. But in the past five years, or let’s say since the since 10 years, we have seen that more and more coming. And then the by the time you react start exploring and there’s more money than then ever that is putting in put it in expression at the moment for copper at least. And what we see is that the it takes time, it could take up to 2025 years between the time you find a deposit that it gets in production. So but but the year the time is counted. So it’s it’s very important to so you will see company reopening old mines, what it will push also, which is not bad, it will force to two, it will force to find a it will force to find ways of recalibrating customer, you know the metals, that will be more and more important.

george grombacher 18:07
So finding, okay, so for lack of a better term recycling metals that are just sitting around somewhere extremely important. Yeah. And then going and going back to historic minds that maybe for lack of technology, or just lack of will or reasons, but maybe now because there’s such a demand, there’s an appetite to go back to those.

Pierre Leveille 18:33
Yes, but there will be a lot of failures into that for many reasons. But the ones that will be in that will resume mining it’s just going to be a short term temporary solution. No it’s it’s not going to be you need to find deposit that will that will operate 50 years you know at least it’s 25 to 50 years at least and an old mind that you do in production in general it’s less than 10 years.

george grombacher 19:03
Got it. Oh there we go. Up here. People are ready for your difference making tip What do you have for them

Pierre Leveille 19:14
You mean an investment or

george grombacher 19:17
whatever you’re into, you’ve got so much life experience with raising a family and doing business all over the world and having your kids go to school in Africa so a tip on copper or whatever you’re into.

Pierre Leveille 19:34
But there’s two things I like to see and I was telling my children many times and I always said you know don’t focus on what will bring you specifically money don’t think of Getting Rich. Think of doing what you what you like, what you feel your your your your your, you know you have been born to do so use your most you skills, do what you like, do what you wet well, and good things will happen to you. And I can see them grow in their life. And I can tell you that this is what happens. And sometimes you have setback like I had recently. But if we do things properly, if we do things that we like, and we liked that project, we were very passionate about that project, not only me, all my team, and if we do things properly, if we do things correctly, good things will happen. And we will probably get the project back had to go forward or we will find another big project that will be the launch of a new era. So that’s my most important tip in life. Do what you like, do it with your best scale and do it well and good things will happen.

george grombacher 20:49
Pierre Leveille 21:03
Thank you. I was happy to be with you to today.

george grombacher 21:06
Damn, tell us the websites and where where people can connect and find you.

Pierre Leveille 21:13
The it’s Deep South resources.com. So pretty simple.

george grombacher 21:18
Perfect. Well, if you enjoyed this as much as I did show up here your appreciation and share today’s show with a friend who also appreciate good ideas, go to deep south resources, calm and learn all about what they’re working on and track their progress.

Pierre Leveille 21:32
Thanks. Thanks, have a nice day.

george grombacher 21:36
And until next time, keep fighting the good fight. We’re all in this together.