Becoming a CPA with Jen Cryder

george grombacher 0:01
Jen Cryder is the CEO of Pei, CPA, she is a CPA. She is an MBA, a leader in the business community, amongst many other things. Welcome to the show, Jen.

Jen Cryder 0:14
Good morning, Greg. Thanks for having me. George.

george grombacher 0:16
Sad to have you on not enough coffee this morning. Never enough. Tell us a little about your personal lives more about your work and why you do what you do.

Jen Cryder 0:26
Yeah, absolutely. So as you said, I’m a CPA. You know, let’s start with outside of work. They’re really fun stuff. I’m the mom of two young kids. So that keeps my husband and I pretty busy. You know, the two kids, the two cats, the two dogs, I feel like my house is chaos some days. But it’s a it’s a fantastic way to focus on things outside of work and stay grounded to what really matters. In terms of my day job, I have the honor and privilege of being the CEO of the Pennsylvania Institute of CPAs. So we represent about 20,000, CPAs, and professionals across the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. And that includes students. So we start sort of all the way in that middle school, high school range, making students aware of what a career and accounting can do for them all the way through that college journey and becoming licensed as a CPA. And then we do a lot of work with CPAs that are in practice in their careers, helping them to be more successful find opportunity, solve problems, and things like that. So I was in public accounting for a long time I practiced as a CPA, and it’s really incredible to take that experience and be able to now work on behalf of the profession, across pa but but also nationally.

george grombacher 1:47
Well, I appreciate that. What’s the significance of to it just just just just just make sense to parents, two kids, two cats, two dogs?

Jen Cryder 1:55
You know, there was no magic to it. It’s just kind of where things landed? You know?

george grombacher 2:00
Okay, fair enough. Awesome. So what is what is the state of, of, of, of the business?

Jen Cryder 2:08
Yeah, so there’s so much going on in the CPA profession. I think that while there are certainly a lot of challenges, there has never been more opportunity for a student considering your career as a CPA, and likewise, never been more opportunity for somebody that’s already in the career. Technology is changing the way we do our work at a really rapid pace, and allowing CPAs to get to the really interesting work because technology is kind of taking all of that day to day stuff. When I started my career that was maybe not so fun. At the same time, clients rely on CPAs for trust and growth and opportunity. And, you know, the needs of clients are complicated and complex and diverse. And client service has never been more interesting than it has today. So you put all that stuff together, really cool work, serving clients really cool ability to use technology. There’s a really strong value proposition for our career as a CPA, like many professions, we’re facing challenges and attracting and retaining talent into our profession. And so a lot of the work I get to do today is talking to folks about what careers is so interesting and engaging and impactful

george grombacher 3:25
on a continuum of this stuff that I that you had to do when you started in your career that I dislike immensely. And then on this end is the stuff I really love. What are some examples of those things? Because I guess it’s not necessarily obvious what CPAs do?

Jen Cryder 3:42
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I was in college and Philadelphia studying to be an accountant, and started interning as an accounting firm, like many people do. And it’s really fantastic experience to kind of get in there and really see if you like it. And I think back to my first internship and I while I had a fantastic career at my firm. A lot of my first internship was standing at the photocopier making photocopies or, you know, back in those days, we still had to add up numbers to make sure that the total was correct. Or, you know, I remember doing inventory observations where I would go out to a factory and my job would be to like count the widgets. All of those were important learning steps for me, but perhaps not the most interesting. Each of those is either completely obsolete now. Or in the case of that inventory observation between drones and AI technology. totally revolutionized. So. Those are some of the things when I started my career that have been completely replaced. When I walk into accounting firms today and see what CPAs are doing. They are using that AI technology to go send a drone around a warehouse taking photos and then that that technology within the photo can say okay, here’s How many widgets are there? No more digging through dusty boxes kind of climbing over things. So CPAs get to be that trusted strategic adviser.

george grombacher 5:12
And so the really fun, interesting work it is being more strategic is that be more having a seat at the table for planning stuff like that? Absolutely.

Jen Cryder 5:25
You know, in a in a career as a CPA, you can apply those skills in lots of different ways, right. So if you want to be an entrepreneur, it’s a great skill set. If you want to help families navigate complicated financial decisions, it’s a great skill set. If you want to go work in the capital markets on Wall Street, it’s a great skill set. There’s a whole continuum there that really the accounting and finance broadly profession serves. So you can apply it in lots of different ways. But the common thread is that no matter which application you choose CPAs power, trust, growth and opportunity. And so you get to use that skill set to help grow a business or provide trusts in the capital markets. And by the way, you can change your mind, right? If you decide to start serving capital markets on Wall Street, super transferable skill set, if one day you want to be an entrepreneur, go make an impact in your community and start your own business.

george grombacher 6:25
What has changed from the perspective of how do you find that interest from a generational perspective is different in the profession? Or what’s what’s different from when you started, aside from obviously, the technology you’ve been talking about?

Jen Cryder 6:39
Yeah, I think that the generations that are evaluating the choice to enter college, are evaluating that really differently. And that is not specific to accounting and finance. I think all of the professions are experiencing that. And we’re seeing that play out in college enrollment numbers. So rightly so these students are sort of evaluating the cost benefit. Now, to become licensed as a CPA right now, you need 150 hours of education, which is most often a year beyond a bachelor’s degree. And so students are looking at that, and they’re doing the math, right, like, imagine that potential accountants are doing the math, and they’re saying, Alright, I’m gonna go to school for five years, that’s an extra year of tuition costs, but also a year of forgone wages were not in the workforce. And so they’re evaluating that really critically at the AICPA, we did some research a couple of months ago, and we were talking to high school students about what would make you choose a career as a CPA or what would discourage you. And it really revealed to us that it’s the return on time invested. That is that key metric for them, which I think is such an opportunity, because that’s a great mindset for a CPA, right, or an accounting and finance professional. And so then, for those of us in the profession, for leaders, company leaders that want to attract talent, they’ve got to think about the return on time invested in the same way as they do every other part of their business. Because those students will only make the choice to major in accounting and become licensed as a CPA. When there’s enough return there at the end, if we’re going to ask them to invest a higher level of time, the wages have to have to go up, we have lagged a little bit, compared to other professions. So a lot of the work we do at Pei, CPA and across the country is talking with firm leaders about sort of building that culture and making accounting firms a place people want to start their careers and then build their careers.

george grombacher 8:44
Which which makes a lot of sense. If I’m trying to think back to when I was a high school student looking at college, and what is it? Is there a personality type that makes somebody drawn to being a CPA its family experience and knowing somebody who is in the field, or are there just people out there who wake up when they’re kids and say, I’m going to be a CPA when I grow up?

Jen Cryder 9:13
Well, I’m sure somebody wakes up and thinks they want to be a CPA, but most often, that’s not the case, right? Like I did not have those role models. I did not know what a CPA was when I was in high school, just using myself as the example. Most often the data shows it is either knowing somebody, a family member or a friend, that’s a CPA or in high school or college, developing that understanding. So in our research, I think about two thirds of high school students these days are entering college already knowing what they want to do. So while maybe my generation was not that often entering college knowing what they wanted to do The generations today very much have that mindset. Because many professions are going into the high school, talking about career awareness, career fairs, things like that. So it’s an incredible opportunity, because there’s a really strong story for CPAs to tell. But we’ve got to explain to high school students, you can have incredible financial security, make a really great impact, and have an interesting, rewarding career. The most important messages, it is not math, it is not sitting in a cubicle by yourself. The most important skill set for a potential CPA is collaboration, communication, problem solving, critical thinking.

george grombacher 10:45
All things which are incredibly attractive. And you know, it’s a, I’m fascinated two thirds of kids entering college have a good idea of what they actually want to do good for them. That’s evidence that it’s probably a much more thoughtful generation than yours. And mine, Jennifer. So is the it’s the challenge and the opportunity to make your to position being a CPA. I don’t want to say cool, but I kind of want to say cool,

Jen Cryder 11:17
dare we say cool. It is cool. It is cool, at least in my own personal experience. I’ve gotten to meet and work with some of the most interesting people that I ever could have imagined. I’ve gotten to travel the world I’ve gotten to help businesses grow. That all sounds pretty cool to me.

george grombacher 11:39
Yeah, certainly the idea or the fact of you’re somebody who’s going to help, really, companies that are potentially changing the world, increased trust, growth and opportunity, versus doing math and being alone in a cubicle somewhere, wearing a short sleeve business shirt, that doesn’t sound very, very attractive at all. So

Jen Cryder 12:02
exactly. It has almost nothing to do with any of that.

george grombacher 12:08
I am, I’m so fond of the fact that how you look at something makes all the difference and your perspective on the work that you’re doing. I think that we can find purpose in most everything that we do. But do you think that that’s potentially Why has your industry not done a good job of that? And now you’re trying to make that shift and connect those dots?

Jen Cryder 12:34
I think you’re absolutely right, George are the industry has not done a good job of that. For a long time, it was sort of looked at like a club, and you were really lucky to get into the club and be a CPA. And while that’s true, you aren’t really lucky to be in the club and be a CPA because that credential has so much trust in the business world. It’s come I think, a little bit at the expense of access. And so I am really interested think about how does the profession shift that to provide access to more people, while maintaining the rigor that’s required at the credential because, you know, CPAs have certain things they can do in the capital markets that nobody else can the protected services of audit and things like that. So we’ve got to maintain rigor, but we’ve got to provide access. And for accounting firms, that’s where many CPAs start their career not all, but many. Really, that gets into a lot of business model issues and retention issues. In the past, the profession was known for working 80 hour weeks, you know, throughout the year. If you go back to that return on time invested metric that students are looking at so closely, they’re sort of looking at it and saying, why would I want to work 80 hours a week when I can go get a job in finance, or data analytics or technology, make the same starting salary or hire and work 40 hours a week or 50 hours a week? So we have been helping firms make those shifts to say, Okay, forget about that traditional pyramid structure of an accounting firm where a ton of people get hired in at the at the bottom, expecting that you’re going to work them really hard and they’re, you know, those that can work their way up, then 20 years down the road, get to those really significant financial rewards of partner, throw all that out the window, because that doesn’t work anymore. How do we rethink this model so that people coming in have really reasonable expectations in terms of workload, and are compensated fairly, and perhaps get to share in the growth of the firm and ownership, earlier career? All of those things go a long way to sort of changing that dynamic in our profession.

george grombacher 14:56
So when you’re having conversations with really well established firms. They’re nodding their head like yell, this makes sense. But sounds easy does hard, I am sure who’s gonna go first, somebody’s gotta go first right to make this shit.

Jen Cryder 15:11
That’s right it, you know, it’s interesting I get I get a range of reactions and these conversations, the last three or four years for accounting firms have been the most profitable ever. So it’s very easy for a firm leader, or a firm partner group to hear me say those things and look at me and say, we’re making more money than ever, I don’t know what you’re talking about. At but I’m increasingly seeing firms take a longer term view, recognizing sort of the shifts that have happened in the workplace. So more and more, I’m seeing firms change those business models. I don’t know that there’s a single firm that is way out there ahead as the leader, but I’m seeing firms pick up bits and pieces of these thoughts. And I’m seeing them enjoy really different retention percentages and employee satisfaction as a result.

george grombacher 16:11
It strikes me that that medical field is going through something similar to this, I assume that that law firms are going through something where residency today is probably way different than residency was 30 years ago, and I imagined that law firms are very similar to CPA firms in what you’ve been describing.

Jen Cryder 16:35
That’s true, that’s true, all of the professions are experiencing this to some extent. Just as we sort of redefine what it means to be a professional. The economics just tend to be very different. When you look at the starting salary of a CPA compared to an attorney. They’re just quite far apart. And so I think the CPA profession is maybe a little bit more acutely impacted in that way.

george grombacher 17:01
Got it. Okay. So what what has been as you are going into high schools and helping to develop internship opportunities, do you feel like like the message is, is getting through to younger people? I

Jen Cryder 17:17
do, I really do feel like that message is getting through. As I’m talking to high school students today. That idea of making an impact to help a business really resonates with them, and they want to know more, and they want to get into a firm and get an internship and see what that looks and feels like. So I’m incredibly encouraged. Like I said earlier in our conversation, there are definitely challenges here in terms of changing the firm business model to retain talent. But there’s so much opportunity in that because I think it allows firms to build for the future. And those high school students are the future. One of the things that I often will talk to high school students about is firm leaders know they need to change, they may not have all the answers on what to do. But in that lies this immense opportunity for high school and college students entering the workforce, because I say to them, you’re going to have the opportunity to build the culture you want. You’re entering the workforce right now at a time where many firm leaders recognize the need to change and are open to it, and really want to hear what high school students and college students have to say, what do they want? I think there’s an openness that I probably haven’t seen before this point in my career.

george grombacher 18:33
I think that that’s really exciting. I love it. Jen, thank you so much for coming on. Where can people learn more about you? How can they engage with you? Yeah,

Jen Cryder 18:42
absolutely. So our website is www.aicpa.org. I’m also on LinkedIn, and would would love to see people online. If we can be a resource, don’t hesitate to reach out. George, this was a lot of fun. Yeah.

george grombacher 19:02
Excellent tool. If you enjoyed this as much as I did show genuine appreciation and share today’s show with a friend who also appreciates good ideas, go to picpa.org check out everything that Jen and the profession are working to accomplish. You could find her on LinkedIn as well. And I will link all of those in the notes. Thanks again, Jen. Thank you. Till next time, remember, do your part doing your best

george grombacher 16:00
So if I want my iPhone, and my Tesla and my Bitcoin to work, we need to get the metal out of the ground.

Pierre Leveille 16:07
Absolutely. Without it, we cannot do it.

george grombacher 16:13
Why? Why is there a Why has production been going down.

Pierre Leveille 16:21
Because the large mines that are producing most of the copper in the world, the grades are going down slowly they’re going there, they’re arriving near the end of life. So and of life of mines in general means less production. And in the past, at least 15 years, the exploration expenditure for copper were pretty low, because the price of copper was low. And when the price is low, companies are tending to not invest more so much in exploration, which is what we see today. It’s it’s, it’s not the way to look at it. Because nobody 15 years ago was able to predict that there would be a so massive shortage, or it’s so massive demand coming. But in the past five years, or let’s say since the since 10 years, we have seen that more and more coming. And then the by the time you react start exploring and there’s more money than then ever that is putting in put it in expression at the moment for copper at least. And what we see is that the it takes time, it could take up to 2025 years between the time you find a deposit that it gets in production. So but but the year the time is counted. So it’s it’s very important to so you will see company reopening old mines, what it will push also, which is not bad, it will force to two, it will force to find a it will force to find ways of recalibrating customer, you know the metals, that will be more and more important.

george grombacher 18:07
So finding, okay, so for lack of a better term recycling metals that are just sitting around somewhere extremely important. Yeah. And then going and going back to historic minds that maybe for lack of technology, or just lack of will or reasons, but maybe now because there’s such a demand, there’s an appetite to go back to those.

Pierre Leveille 18:33
Yes, but there will be a lot of failures into that for many reasons. But the ones that will be in that will resume mining it’s just going to be a short term temporary solution. No it’s it’s not going to be you need to find deposit that will that will operate 50 years you know at least it’s 25 to 50 years at least and an old mind that you do in production in general it’s less than 10 years.

george grombacher 19:03
Got it. Oh there we go. Up here. People are ready for your difference making tip What do you have for them

Pierre Leveille 19:14
You mean an investment or

george grombacher 19:17
whatever you’re into, you’ve got so much life experience with raising a family and doing business all over the world and having your kids go to school in Africa so a tip on copper or whatever you’re into.

Pierre Leveille 19:34
But there’s two things I like to see and I was telling my children many times and I always said you know don’t focus on what will bring you specifically money don’t think of Getting Rich. Think of doing what you what you like, what you feel your your your your your, you know you have been born to do so use your most you skills, do what you like, do what you wet well, and good things will happen to you. And I can see them grow in their life. And I can tell you that this is what happens. And sometimes you have setback like I had recently. But if we do things properly, if we do things that we like, and we liked that project, we were very passionate about that project, not only me, all my team, and if we do things properly, if we do things correctly, good things will happen. And we will probably get the project back had to go forward or we will find another big project that will be the launch of a new era. So that’s my most important tip in life. Do what you like, do it with your best scale and do it well and good things will happen.

george grombacher 20:49
Pierre Leveille 21:03
Thank you. I was happy to be with you to today.

george grombacher 21:06
Damn, tell us the websites and where where people can connect and find you.

Pierre Leveille 21:13
The it’s Deep South resources.com. So pretty simple.

george grombacher 21:18
Perfect. Well, if you enjoyed this as much as I did show up here your appreciation and share today’s show with a friend who also appreciate good ideas, go to deep south resources, calm and learn all about what they’re working on and track their progress.

Pierre Leveille 21:32
Thanks. Thanks, have a nice day.

george grombacher 21:36
And until next time, keep fighting the good fight. We’re all in this together.