Usury and Judaism with Dr. Steven Katz

eorge grombacher 0:02
Dr. Steven Katz is the founding director of the Leb cell center for Judaic Studies at Boston University. He’s a highly regarded and respected thought leader on subject of Judaism, and he is a returning guest for the Life Blog podcast. Welcome back. Dr. Katz,

Dr. Steven Katz 0:17
thank you very much. It’s nice to be here.

george grombacher 0:19
excited to have you back on, I reached out because I was I am personally doing an exploration of, of money from the perspective of the world’s largest religions, or most practiced religions. And since we had such a wonderful conversation about Judaism, a couple of months back, I invited you back on to talk about talk about that. So thanks for coming back on and what’s what’s the best place to start?

Dr. Steven Katz 0:47
I think the best place to start is not with the biblical and classical things, but with how Jews became associated with money. The issue with Jews and money is a peculiar one. And it’s deeply entrenched in our culture. And people think about all the time that Jews have money when you go to China, and you give a lecture on anything you give it on the Bible on my maladies on Zionism. The first question you get is, why are the Jews so smart? And the second question is, why are the Jews so rich, and that’s everywhere this impression of Jews and money, but you have to understand that it’s not necessarily the case, that this should be. So what happened as a historical accident. People need to understand that in the classical world, there was no special association of Jews in money, not in the biblical period, not in the post biblical period, the rabbinic period, not in the early Middle Ages, in those eras, as you see, for example, in a famous collection of documents, on Greek and Roman authors on Jews and Judaism, that there is no document that identifies Jews in money in any special way. And you won’t find any identification elsewhere in Egyptian sources and other kinds of Middle Eastern sources. So how did it come about that this association got fixed? It happened by accident, because of the Middle Ages. In the Middle Ages, the church control social order, control the economic order control political life, and the church increasingly was hostile to Judaism. And so what it did was it with the help of kings and cod, those passed legislation that said, Jews can’t be part of the regular economy. They can’t be part of the guild. They can’t go to the universities, they can’t learn the usual trades. What can they do to stay alive? Because the church did have a principle to keep us alive. It said, we’ll put them in areas of the economy that are unwelcome to everyone else. And the most important of these was usury. Now remember, usually lending money at interest is a biblical rule. You shouldn’t lend money at interest, and we’ll come back to talk about that in a few minutes. But in the meanwhile, even though the rule was no lending an interest society, medieval society needed interest, no one needed more than the church and the king. And in fact, the largest money lenders in the Middle Ages were actually the church. But the fact is that to make it widely available to ordinary people, they said, You Jews, you could lend money at interest, even though it was against Jewish law, just like it was against Christian law. But the Jews having no alternative except being dealers and secondhand rags, took on the opportunity. Now what happened? No one likes the person you owe money to. And therefore, the anti semitism created a role that exacerbated the financial connection as a source of hate. So in place in two ways, one, anti semitism causes usury. I want to stress the anti semitism precedes money lending. Then, because it exists use less money. And of course, no one likes the moneylender. So it reinforces the hatred of Jews. So this becomes an association widespread throughout Christian society. You don’t find that the same degree in Muslim society. You don’t find it in other parts of the world where the Jews lived, even if they’re successful, like in India and China. But the whole idea of the association comes from this peculiar role that Jews are forced to play in the Middle Ages. So when you understand that then you follow the rest of the story. And you see, for example, by the time of Shakespeare in the end of the 16th century, Shylock, then you get Fagan with Dickens and so on. So These are historical growth and historical ideas that everyone needs to understand.

george grombacher 5:10
I’ll just ask the question, are you aware of beliefs or thoughts around usury and Islam?

Dr. Steven Katz 5:19
There are principles but they’re not develop the same way. You don’t have the same body of literature till the modern era. What happens in Islam is that Islam has its own reasons for anti Judaism. It’s in competition over the question of who has the real privilege with God, Jews, Christians and Muslims, the Muslims decreed that the Muslims are superior. And that that’s why they call the Quran, the seal of the prophets, he closes the book of prophecy, no one can compete. And the earliest traditions of Judaism, Christianity, and Zoroastrianism are all true, but inferior. And so they’re called dummies, which means protected minorities. But to get the protected status, they have to pay special taxes. And I’ve other kinds of restrictions. So they can’t ride a horse only a donkey, they can’t build a synagogue higher than a mosque, they can have other certain kinds of financial activity, they must yet wear clothes with a yellow God, yellow in them, which is where the Nazi idea of a yellow straw comes from. So Islam has a different tradition, there’s more theological tradition.

george grombacher 6:36
Thank you. You mentioned that there was no document or writing that existed around Jews and money, that I get that right? Yes, go period.

Dr. Steven Katz 6:47
Okay. By the middle ages, of course, you have it because this has all unfolded began to grow in its streak. But if you look at Greek authors, if you look at Latin authors, you won’t find this as a symbol of mark of antipathy to the Jews. You don’t find any of that later on. It’s always a question of Jews and money becomes part of a larger conversation of anti semitism is classical anti semitism. And it’s mostly misanthropic the chance that Jews are not like other people, because they have a special Sabbath special food laws. They don’t do it the sexual relations with non Jews supposedly, but the economic argument you don’t find. So this is a medieval development.

george grombacher 7:39
Okay, I appreciate the context very much. In terms of so in, in the Torah is there talk about the pursuit of wealth, the pursuit of money, just the feelings about being wealthy?

Dr. Steven Katz 7:55
There is in the Torah, the Five Books of Moses, conversation, minor conversation, I’d say about economic matters. But there’s no real discussion of money, the way we think of money today, what they think of is that there are economic interests that people have, and there are economic interactions that people have. Now what the Torah is concerned to do is to set down rules that make these interactions fair and honorable. The key is that there should be a social order that is harmonious and honorable. So you think for example, as a rule, that you have to pay your workers every day, so you really pay them. The other place you see it, for example, is in the Jubilee year. You know the rules of the Jubilee Year, George, I do not. Every seven years is a sabbatical year, the law landlines fallow every 49th year, every cycle of seven sevens, you get the 50th year which is called the Jubilee Year. You have in Philadelphia, I think the famous phrase about the Jubilee year on the house of the revolutionary assembly. The fact is, that in the 50th year all land transactions on the buying and selling of land all the rearrangement of land, returns to the original biblical division of the land. Now, why does the Bible want that to be the case? Because it understands that in the course of the 49, intervening years, there will be dislocations. Some people will get rich, some people will get poor, some people would be advantaged, others disadvantaged, but they didn’t want a society that was unjust, and had rich and poor, those who haven’t and those who haven’t. And therefore the Bible legislature, the 50th year it goes back to zero, so that everybody starts off again it what Moses had done by dividing the land fairly. So you see See, there are rules that are largely responsible to the community, they are about the responsibility you have if you have resources, but there’s no discussion of money as such.

george grombacher 10:14
What is what is the significance of the number seven?

Dr. Steven Katz 10:18
Seven is an old idea that seven is a cosmological influence. You know, there’s an old theory that numbers and letters have significance. And that they tell you certain kinds of things. And also they lend themselves to a certain kind of creative power, magic, whatever you might call it. So if you study Genesis, you’ll find that in the creation, story seven is already very important. Seven days of the week, seven days having to do with other forms of you count, you’ll find counsel 49, seven times seven, seven is associated with magical ideas, not with money.

george grombacher 11:01
Fair enough. So after seven periods of sevens of 49 years, the idea being that over the course of that time, some will rise, some will fall, bad things will happen, good things will happen. And we need to reset things to foster fairness. Right? Is that still practiced? No,

Dr. Steven Katz 11:23
it hasn’t been practice. We don’t know who was ever practice. But it’s the biblical rule. The time it would have been practiced, then would have been in the First Temple period, which is from the 10th century to the sixth century, before the common era before Christianity, but it’s contested whether it ever actually was implemented.

george grombacher 11:46
In terms of where we are at today, so just just just contemporary Jewish life, how is How is money thought about from a community standpoint, if at all?

Dr. Steven Katz 11:57
Well, it’s thought about, I think very much under the influence of the tradition, namely, that God is the source of wealth. And if God gives you wealth, it’s not for you to squander and just be a playboy. The idea is that you have responsibility to use that wealth for the good of the community. And here you see a very strong emphasis in Jewish tradition on charity, that charity is not a wistful, just I want to do it, I don’t want to do it. It’s mandated remember the biblical rules about tithing, that you should give 10% of your income. And when you deal with money, you shouldn’t think of lending money as a source of making money. You should do these things as a kind of human solidarity, and more locally more especially, to reinforce the nature of the Jewish community. So that, for example, every way you look, every festival, for example, goes very far in the discussion of what’s obligated, that you should give charity at the beginning of the festival, you should open your doors to invite the hungry into your Passover meal or your other festive meals, that you have great responsibility to see for the children, the orphans, you all know everyone knows about the biblical account that repeatedly says repeatedly, many, many times, you have to look after the widow and the orphan. Then you have the rules that are famous to most people because they are prominent in the story of Ruth, who becomes the great grandmother of Jesus. And she’s organizing agricultural gathering, she goes out into the field. And you see there the rule, the rule of the agricultural law is that there’s a certain percentage of the field you have to leave alone, you can’t cut and take it, because you have to leave it for the poor. So they’ll have what to be fed on, they’ll have enough to live on. So there are these ideas of maintenance of community responsibility. I remember even as a child, when we went to the school, traditional school, before we prayed in the morning, we would put a few pennies in a charity box. And every traditional Jewish home, one of the things you’ll find is a charity box called it’s a duck about so this is the traditional idea, George

george grombacher 14:41
excellent. I am certainly not any kind of a biblical scholar being raised Episcopalian. That’s sort of my motivation for this exploration to learn more, but to recall a verse In the Bible talking about how it’s harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than a camel to go through the eye of a needle. It’s nothing like that in the Jewish faith.

Dr. Steven Katz 15:09
No, that’s a Christian statement. It’s a statement in the New Testament. I would say the rabbi’s did not look favorably on spending one’s life trying to get rich. On the other hand, they certainly did not see it as a criminal activity. And they believed that the right thing is how you use it. It’s a temptation. It’s a tool. It’s an obligation. It’s many things. And the trick for human beings is to negotiate which ones are right and which ones are wrong, which ones are helpful and which ones are devastating, destructive, which ones are honorable, and which ones are not honorable?

george grombacher 15:57
That’s the trick. That’s the trick. So I’m hearing themes of responsibility, community, stewardship, giving, tithing, is there a certain amount that is, is the term x is an expectation,

Dr. Steven Katz 16:18
it’s not an expectation, it’s a requirement that you should do 10% of your yearly income to charity. And then there are discussions of how much above that you can give away. Because if you give away too much, you just become poor, so I’m gonna have to feed you. So it all starts, however, with the biblical obligation that everyone has to give 10% of their income tithing. Also, when the temple stood in Jerusalem, there were a requirement for the general good that everybody in the community also sent every year, a certain fixed sum of money into the treasury so that the temple could do good works, give our charity, keep the sacrificial audit going, and so on.

george grombacher 17:07
I know, I live in Arizona, and I, we have a very vibrant Jewish community. And I’ve heard of the Jewish free loan. Are you familiar with that?

Dr. Steven Katz 17:18
Sure. That’s an old old. Remember, I told you, that you usually in the Bible, and it’s viewed negatively. And it says that you shouldn’t lend money at interest. Right? Usury doesn’t just mean lending money, it means lending money at interest. So here you have the situation, just like the medieval Christian community needed interest, and put the Jews in the role, the Jewish community everywhere realized that you need interest to help the poor, to help a businessman who may try to get started to help a widow and the orphan. So what it says is that you can help the community by creating a fund that you can give out to help all the people in need, but not charge them any interest. So you give out $100 And hopefully they pay you back 100. And the next person comes in and gets the 100 views it again, it’s very interesting that in Asia, there are a lot of places where women have discovered the secret. And they’ve created these kinds of communes where they collectively take money to help people buy a sewing machine or some other kinds of necessity, then they make some local currency and they repay the loan to the Organization of Women, that old idea in Judaism goes back already to late rabbinic times rabbinic that is a 200 300 100. That’s a very ancient idea.

george grombacher 18:54
And a very beautiful one. And the example, three

Dr. Steven Katz 18:57
lone societies everywhere, wherever you have a Jewish community, you’ll find you have

george grombacher 19:04
what is what is the thinking, feeling practice requirements, responsibilities around leaving an inheritance to future generations? Well,

Dr. Steven Katz 19:13
there are rules again, in the Bible, obviously, there’s a practical matter. And again, the Bible is concerned about how it should be done fairly. So the Bible does talk about distributing estates and talks about inheritance. And what it does is simply say that there should be no fighting. Everybody should know the rules. The oldest child gets the double portion. That’s the main rule. And the other children then divide equally what’s left of the assets

george grombacher 19:48
is the the primacy of the firstborn primacy

Dr. Steven Katz 19:52
of the firstborn. That’s right. Why is that? Well, they felt that that was the nature of the beast. vocal tradition that the oldest child had a kind of preeminence. And so they continued that. And you see the same thing in royal families in Europe, right, who becomes the king, the oldest son. And then his brother follows him in due course if he passes away. But the idea is that there’s something about primo janitor, there’s something about the firstborn having rights.

george grombacher 20:28
Is there is there? Do you have a favorite story? Or scripture?

Dr. Steven Katz 20:32
You asked in advance? I couldn’t think of a story. I’m not much of a storyteller is George, I’m a historian. I’ve got to give that a miss. Okay.

george grombacher 20:43
Fair enough. Fair enough. Historian versus storyteller, the power of narrative.

Dr. Steven Katz 20:50
Well, storytellers might do more good. But again, they’re not held to the same standard of accuracy.

george grombacher 20:57
Fair enough. Fair enough.

Dr. Steven Katz 20:59
And most of the stories you hear anyway, are really kind of hagiography. They’re usually told to extol someone. And it’s not clear at all, that the story has any basis, in fact,

george grombacher 21:14
fair enough. I know that you’ve shared a lot of wisdom and information with us. And I’m grateful for that. Whatever. What have I forgotten to ask that you think is important about this conversation?

Dr. Steven Katz 21:25
I think the important thing is that what has happened is, this association of Jews and money has become so deeply ingrained in the cultural life of Western Europe especially, and spread from there now in significant ways to the Muslim world, where the anti semitism of Christianity was important in the 19th and 20th centuries, because of Zionism and other kinds of competition. And the most terrible thing is that it distorts the reality of Jewish life and it distorts the reality of Jewish non Jewish interactions. And it creates all kinds of mythic stereotypical misunderstandings, that can have only negative consequences and that are untrue.

george grombacher 22:17
Going back to that problem of storytelling,

Dr. Steven Katz 22:20
right. In Arizona, you can tell stories. There you go.

george grombacher 22:26
I like it. Well, Dr. Steven Katz, thank you so much for for coming back on and and and sharing your insights and knowledge and wisdom with us.

Dr. Steven Katz 22:35
My pleasure. Thank you very much.

george grombacher 22:38
You enjoyed this as much as I did. So Dr. Katz, your appreciation and share today’s show with a friend who also appreciates good ideas. And remember, do your part by doing your best. Thank you.

george grombacher 16:00
So if I want my iPhone, and my Tesla and my Bitcoin to work, we need to get the metal out of the ground.

Pierre Leveille 16:07
Absolutely. Without it, we cannot do it.

george grombacher 16:13
Why? Why is there a Why has production been going down.

Pierre Leveille 16:21
Because the large mines that are producing most of the copper in the world, the grades are going down slowly they’re going there, they’re arriving near the end of life. So and of life of mines in general means less production. And in the past, at least 15 years, the exploration expenditure for copper were pretty low, because the price of copper was low. And when the price is low, companies are tending to not invest more so much in exploration, which is what we see today. It’s it’s, it’s not the way to look at it. Because nobody 15 years ago was able to predict that there would be a so massive shortage, or it’s so massive demand coming. But in the past five years, or let’s say since the since 10 years, we have seen that more and more coming. And then the by the time you react start exploring and there’s more money than then ever that is putting in put it in expression at the moment for copper at least. And what we see is that the it takes time, it could take up to 2025 years between the time you find a deposit that it gets in production. So but but the year the time is counted. So it’s it’s very important to so you will see company reopening old mines, what it will push also, which is not bad, it will force to two, it will force to find a it will force to find ways of recalibrating customer, you know the metals, that will be more and more important.

george grombacher 18:07
So finding, okay, so for lack of a better term recycling metals that are just sitting around somewhere extremely important. Yeah. And then going and going back to historic minds that maybe for lack of technology, or just lack of will or reasons, but maybe now because there’s such a demand, there’s an appetite to go back to those.

Pierre Leveille 18:33
Yes, but there will be a lot of failures into that for many reasons. But the ones that will be in that will resume mining it’s just going to be a short term temporary solution. No it’s it’s not going to be you need to find deposit that will that will operate 50 years you know at least it’s 25 to 50 years at least and an old mind that you do in production in general it’s less than 10 years.

george grombacher 19:03
Got it. Oh there we go. Up here. People are ready for your difference making tip What do you have for them

Pierre Leveille 19:14
You mean an investment or

george grombacher 19:17
whatever you’re into, you’ve got so much life experience with raising a family and doing business all over the world and having your kids go to school in Africa so a tip on copper or whatever you’re into.

Pierre Leveille 19:34
But there’s two things I like to see and I was telling my children many times and I always said you know don’t focus on what will bring you specifically money don’t think of Getting Rich. Think of doing what you what you like, what you feel your your your your your, you know you have been born to do so use your most you skills, do what you like, do what you wet well, and good things will happen to you. And I can see them grow in their life. And I can tell you that this is what happens. And sometimes you have setback like I had recently. But if we do things properly, if we do things that we like, and we liked that project, we were very passionate about that project, not only me, all my team, and if we do things properly, if we do things correctly, good things will happen. And we will probably get the project back had to go forward or we will find another big project that will be the launch of a new era. So that’s my most important tip in life. Do what you like, do it with your best scale and do it well and good things will happen.

george grombacher 20:49
Pierre Leveille 21:03
Thank you. I was happy to be with you to today.

george grombacher 21:06
Damn, tell us the websites and where where people can connect and find you.

Pierre Leveille 21:13
The it’s Deep South resources.com. So pretty simple.

george grombacher 21:18
Perfect. Well, if you enjoyed this as much as I did show up here your appreciation and share today’s show with a friend who also appreciate good ideas, go to deep south resources, calm and learn all about what they’re working on and track their progress.

Pierre Leveille 21:32
Thanks. Thanks, have a nice day.

george grombacher 21:36
And until next time, keep fighting the good fight. We’re all in this together.