Understanding Psilocybin with Neil Markey

New York was a captain in the United States Army, before co founding and becoming CEO of Beckley retreat. They’re an organization that has been instrumental in furthering psychedelic research policy as well as experiences. Welcome to the show, Neil,

Neil Markey 0:17
thank you for having me. George,

george grombacher 0:19
yeah, excited to interview on tell us a little about your personal lives, more about your work and why you do what you do.

Neil Markey 0:28
I grew up in Maryland, was doing my undergrad. September 11. Happened, long story short, ended up in the service, thinking I was doing the right thing. Now I don’t know if that. I don’t know if I believe the reasons that we went to war, but that’s another story. I went to Iraq once, Afghanistan, twice, got out, went to grad school and got introduced to meditation after trying lots of different traditional mental health interventions like SSRIs and anti anxiety medications and meditation was super helpful to me, and then I had the opportunity to have some professionally facilitated psychedelic experiences, and for me, it felt like they were almost accelerating what I was trying to do with meditation. And kind of gave me almost like an instant central nervous system reset, maybe, if you will. And so, you know, I had some really meaningful personal experiences with these plants and compounds, and then I had a windy road in the corporate career in the corporate world for a while. But yeah, I mean, I I’m doing what I’m doing now, because I believe in it, and I think it’s a pretty special time, because the world is opening up to it, and more people are considering trying these experiences. And so it’s, I think it’s my life’s work, getting to get these experiences to more people. It’s really an honor.

george grombacher 1:57
Well, that is, that is a cool thing to I don’t know if the term is meander, but we find our way into what we’re supposed to be doing eventually. God willing,

Neil Markey 2:06
God willing, yeah, and what’s that saying? It’s like, you can’t I think it was jobs. Maybe it was like you can’t connect the dots looking forward, but looking back, they add up. You know, it makes sense. All those kind of twists and turns were important, but they got me to kind of where I am now.

george grombacher 2:24
Yeah, I appreciate that. So what were you looking for? You’re looking for you’re addressing a problem with medication, and then you shift to to meditation, then you find psychedelics. What was what? What was the problem?

Neil Markey 2:40
I was in a state of fight or flight, you know. I mean, I was having trouble sleeping, and then was having a lot of anxiety. And I mean, for me, too, I was doing well by some measures. I was at a good school and was getting good job offers. So for me, the insight there is, like, you really never know what’s going on with someone. There’s a lot of people out there in the world that are, you know, showing up, but have a tremendous amount of pain, and that was me, and, you know, it started to affect your relationships. You just, you’re never, you’re not present, you know, when you’re in this kind of state of fight or flight, you’re, you’re kind of scanning the world, looking for threats, you know. And so instead of being able to be present and connect at a deeper level with people, you’re in your mind, yeah, you know, looking for looking for problems, and it’s just a really unhealthy way to live, you know, wears you out, and so I was looking for a more peaceful, fulfilling way to be. Do you? Do

george grombacher 3:53
you think that you were always that way, or was it your time in the military that that made you that way? Yeah,

Neil Markey 4:03
um, I was probably, you know, it’s a spectrum, yeah, um, I think some people are naturally wired to be a little bit more present and in flow and at ease. I’m not that way. I think I’ve always kind of been in my head and, you know, calculating and thinking and making sense of things, which is good to some extent. It can help you with some career paths and things like this, but it can also make you really miserable if it gets out of balance and you don’t have kind of control over that mode. And so I think my natural tendency was to be very analytical, very judgmental, very critical in my mind. And then the service, you know, dumped on top of that in a big way, and like, put me into a. A state that was, that was really quite unhealthy, that took a lot of effort to wind out of and reset.

george grombacher 5:07
Yeah, I literally can’t even imagine. I think, I think I’m more in the camp that you were prior to the service where I you know, everything you sort of described, sounds like I would describe myself in that same way, and always sort of just ready. I’m in a state of of, I don’t know, of alert, but I’m I’m ready to go at all times. And I’m fond of calling myself a human being versus a human doing. And I’m trying, or I’m sorry, I’m a human doing versus a human being. I’m trying to become more of a human being. So I say, I understand what you’re talking about.

Neil Markey 5:44
Yeah, it’s, it’s pretty chronic in the United States, for sure, you know? And if you spend some time in other parts of the world, you’ll see that the way we are here is not the way it is everywhere. We move fast and we try and get a lot done, which there’s some real benefit to, you know. And it’s not all bad, but it just, you know, with everything, there’s balance to be had, you know, and you want to be able to choose.

george grombacher 6:13
And so enter psychedelics and psilocybin the first time you hear about it. What? What? What are your thoughts kind of take me through that, that that process,

Neil Markey 6:26
yeah, I, I guess it the at the point in grad school, I was, I was pretty miserable. I mean, I was, it was getting pretty bad. So I would, I would say I was kind of open to anything I didn’t have. I wasn’t scared of it. And I, I think I was probably more open minded than most, you know. And so when the opportunity kind of presented itself, it felt, it felt very organic, you know. And for me, I had been meditating for quite some time, and had made a lot of progress, and it came through that same community of you, which I trusted, and so it wasn’t this kind of really wild outside the box thing. It was kind of like, okay, this is, feels like a very next logical step. And I had been doing, you know, some research around different modalities that were non traditional. And, I mean, I think if you look at the research, particularly around mushrooms, you know, they’re, it’s, it’s pretty significant, the potential benefit. Now, there’s risks, and they’re everywhere. But if you look at the risk reward and compare it to a lot of the things that we get from the established system, it’s like, well, if it’s a no brainer to try it, you know, a no brainer, right? So long as you, you know, you you ask the right questions, and you know, you kind of eyes wide open around some of the risk, but relative compared to some of the pharmaceutical drugs, it’s like, you know, they’re natural, they’re non toxic. It looks like they’re neuro regenerative. They’ve been used for 1000s of years, millions of people. So, so, yeah, it felt, it felt right on time.

george grombacher 8:19
And what about So, I think that that certainly makes sense to me, that you wouldn’t be uncomfortable necessarily with it being with your background and things that you’ve done and accomplished throughout the course of your life. So how do you feel like just the public at large has viewed psychedelics and psilocybin over the past 10 years, recent memory.

Neil Markey 8:42
Yeah, I mean, it’s been changing pretty dramatically. It’s, it’s almost unbelievable. But, you know, they the the medical system. You know, we were doing a lot of research on different psychedelics back in the 70s, 60s, 70s, and it looked good then. But then there was the whole drug war. And then, you know, everything got rescheduled as a schedule one. So, you know, that’s why, you know, mushrooms are in the same bucket as heroin, which is just like, Come on, guys. And so then, you know, a lot of the research went underground, or was, you know, paused. And then, if you remember, you know, if you’re around my age, you remember, you know, dare, and I mean, drugs were, that was priority number one was, was, was, don’t do drugs. You know, at the same time, the big pharmaceutical companies are giving us their drugs, right? But so we got indoctrinated as a society, in some ways, to think that this was, these were like the boogeyman, and if you took LSD one time, there was a chance you weren’t going to come back, or you might jump out a window. And these like really kind of obscure, you know, one off cases of bad outcomes. Blown up in the media. And so I you know you, if you hear that stuff over and over and over again as you’re growing up, you because you start to believe it. That’s just the way humans are. Now, something happened in the last 10, five, two years where I think it’s been a mix of things. I think that in some ways, people are at a breaking point with the Western medical system. I mean, you know, there’s been a lot of advances, but by a lot of measures, just fundamentally broken. You know, it’s particularly like mental health, if you look at the incident rate over time, you know the you know how often we’re prescribing medications, it’s just it’s not working. And I think people are like, Okay, guys, you’ve had decades. Something’s not checking out here, and more and more people going bankrupt because of the Western medical system. And I think so people were just like, fed up. And then covid happened. And I think that kind of pushed people to this breaking point of realizing that this, like hustle, hustle life, and, you know, this lack of connection in the way that we live, is not sustainable. And then that’s all happening at the same time. There’s some pretty notable research that’s coming out. And, you know, Michael Pollan’s book how to change your mind, I think, was, in some ways, a watershed moment, because he was a very well respected journalist, and kind of brought a level of professionalism in and just broke it down, you know, and and then you started to have more and more studies that were coming out. So I think it was kind of, you know, a compilation of things that got us to where we are today, which is, you know, people that five years ago would have never considered it, or like, Okay, I’ll try it. It’s um, it’s worth considering. And then the research, you know, just continues to add, you know, it’s, again, it’s not for everyone, not for everything, and not without risks, but relative to what we have, it’s, it’s certainly worth considering, you know, it’s certainly worth studying more and and so, you know, we just had the former CEO of Disney World come through. You know, we had the one of the most senior partners from McKinsey and Company come through. So, you know? So these are, these are people that traditionally weren’t going psychedelics, but now they’re seeing it as a way to become more empathetic or improve leadership or cognitive function, or so it’s, it’s shift. It’s shifted dramatically in the last few years, for sure.

george grombacher 12:43
Yeah, it’s, it’s a really interesting thing, for sure. And that perfect segue to my next question. You’ve got people that that view it as as a medicine for helping with an ailment, say, PTSD, and you’ve got folks that are looking at it as this is going to just optimize so what is psilocybin doing to me? Is it, is it doing the same thing to everyone? Am I having a unique experience with it?

Neil Markey 13:13
Yeah. And so I think it has kind of applications across that, you know, spectrum of state of being. And so a lot of the research and emphasis has been around psychedelic psilocybin for clinical indications like treatment resistant depression or PTSD. And it looks like it can take people that are in really bad shape, and with, you know, I get all these experiences are contextual, so it’s not just the compound, but it’s the things that happen around the experience. So the therapy that happens around it, or the new habits that get in, you know, that get introduced. But it can take people from pretty bad to more stable, right? And then that’s positive. It looks like it can also take people that are quite healthy, you know, healthy normals, and get them even higher up, that, you know, spectrum to self actualization, or, you know, some of these higher order things that that most of us want as human beings, more empathy, more feeling of awe and joy, and so it it. You know, from a neuroscience perspective, you know, when you take a large dose of psilocybin, what it looks like is happening kind of in the brain. And you know, probably body central nervous system is it’s, it’s, it’s creating this neuroplasticity, this openness, and so if you look at like a fMRI scan of the brain, it’s allowing parts of the brain to connect that maybe have never connected before. So in some ways, it’s just allowing the brain and body to function at a higher level, you know. So if you’re just depending on where you are on that spectrum, you can kind of move up that, that that spectrum potentially. And I think that there’ll be lots of applications, I think, with. You know, the right dose and the right approach. It could improve learning. Could improve, you know, all these kind of creative functions. Yeah, it has a, has a pretty profound effect on the the brain and central nervous system.

george grombacher 15:16
It’s it, I think it’s a really exciting thing. And I almost stepped into the trap of of describing it as a panacea, which is what we all want. We want to take the magic pill that’s going to fix everything. But the reality is, this is psilocybin or some other substance we’re talking about. Have many beneficial attributes to it can help you a lot in addition or in conjunction with other interventions, other healthy living modalities.

Neil Markey 15:45
Yeah, yeah, we’re big believers in that, and we try and be very clear with people that there is something very special here with these plants, and we’ve got to get out of this mindset, that we can kind of just take something mindlessly and it’s going to fix our problem. Fix our problems all better. Yeah, right. They, they create an opportunity and but you got to meet it halfway. But if you do do that, and that’s why, you know, I believe in the way we’re presenting it and kind of a structured approach with the where we’re teaching people different well being practices and different ways to be, different ways to think, you know, I think you can get along a lot of long term benefit. But I you know, what we’ve seen, I think this is pretty you know, consensus is, if you give people these experiences and you don’t do any habit change around it, you don’t do any therapy around it, you don’t do any different don’t try and introduce any new ways of being. Then people might have a bit of a glow for a period of time. They might feel less anxious or more grateful, but you’re going to revert back, because by the time you’re a young adult, you know, a lot of how we’re showing up in the world is, it’s pretty deeply rooted, and so you need to make a conscious effort to kind of, you know, reroute some of those ways of being. But it looks like, if you know, if you take that opportunity to really put some new habits in place, that that, you know, new way of being can be more durable, last longer, but, but, yeah, it’s, um, it’s, there’s still so much to be learned. You know, because it’s was underground for so long, we don’t have long term studies, but it looks like there’s something’s pretty special here.

george grombacher 17:42
Yeah, literally decades of lost time, but just is what it is. It just is what it is, Neil, and here we are, bringing it to the bringing it to more people. So the way that you’ve structured the program, walk me through that, because I know that you have these amazing retreats, but not everybody can probably get away for those. But tell me all about everything.

Neil Markey 18:05
Yeah, we we have programs in Jamaica and the Netherlands, and it’s two of the few places where you can use mushrooms fully legally. So it’s all above board. There’s no gray area. We’re insured. You know, all the kind of basic things you would expect out of a business, you know, we are trying to do, you know, we’re trying to do this work at a very high level of professionalism. And then, yeah, we run a comprehensive, kind of Integrative Health Program that has a digital prep where you get access to our catalog of content and the modules. And so we’re teaching a lot of these basic well being practices, meditation, mindful movement, gratitude, practice, you know, just basic, simple things that are free, that you can do on your own. And we can give people exposure to lots of different types, and then we really encourage people to select a few that kind of resonate with them. And, you know, we looked at adult learning and have it change science. And we know that, you know, not every technique is for every kind of there’s some taste there. So we try and, you know, give people opportunity to find, find their way, and then we also get the group dynamic started. So our our programs are done in groups, cohorts. And again, if you look at adult learning or habit change, there’s something that happens in that group dynamic, right? People, a lot of times, will show up for others, sometimes more than they’ll show up for themselves. So we kind of you know, there’s a there’s a way to get the group dynamic going that’s actually really important, and you can start building trust with the with the group and the facilitators, and then the programs that we do now are five night immersive experiences, and they’re all like beautiful estates, so you’re deep in nature. Digital detox, not super strict. You can have your device, but, you know, it’s an opportunity to leave it away. You know, leave it, leave it off during the. Day and, and then we’re doing all those practices together, but in nature as a group. And, and then the highlight is probably the two psilocybin sessions. Those are on day two and day four. And they’re done in a pretty traditional way. You know, everyone gets their own custom amount of a mushroom tea, which, which we make, in a way that you would see in some of these indigenous communities with and, you know, it’s a discussion between you and the senior facilitator. Some people, you know, are more on the lower end of the guidelines, and some people are more on the higher end. It’s just depends on where that individual is. And, yeah, it’s a, you know, we use Western kind of psychotherapy, informed approaches for the group work in between. And there’s lots of time to be in nature and go to the beach in Jamaica or be in nature in the Netherlands and and then, you know, when everyone leaves after the immersive portion, then we start immediately with a six week digital follow up, or integration, which is mostly self directed, but again, it’s more access to that, because this is where this there’s this opportunity, there’s this openness for change. And so if you get people to really commit to the meditation, commit to spending more time in nature, commit to journaling or gratitude practice. We have a lot of reason to believe that that’s going to stick, because there’s this kind of openness. And so it’s a really thoughtful, kind of comprehensive program that I think, you know, gets really, has been getting really good results. And is, yeah, it’s really good value.

george grombacher 21:43
Well, I think, I think it’s an exciting time, and certainly, with that, the amount of struggles that we, collectively human beings are going through, some new approaches, I think are very welcome. So I’m excited about it. Thank you so much for coming on. Where can people learn more about you, and how can they get involved with Beckley retreats?

Neil Markey 22:03
Yeah, if you Google Beckley retreats, we come up. Amanda fielding is the kind of matriarch of this broader Beckley organization. And if you Google her, you should read about her. She’s really iconic, and her story is incredible. And then we do twice a week, Q and A’s. You can also on our site, sign up for a one on one. We’re a small company, and know that this is a bit of a big decision, so we’ll make time to answer all your questions. We’ve had people join Q and A’s for like, months before they finally made the decision to come down. So you know, we’re easy to get in touch with. And then for your listeners, we did a code life, life 500 and if you use that code, you can get $500 off a program. And we’ve got programs, you know, a few times a month in Jamaica and the Netherlands. So we’d be excited to get some of your listeners down. Awesome.

george grombacher 22:58
Well, if you enjoyed this as much as I did show Neil your appreciation and share today’s show with a friend who also appreciates good ideas. Go to beckleyretreats.com, or just Google Beckley retreats, and check out everything that Neil and I have been talking about today. Take advantage of those two time a week Q A sessions and figure out if it is the right time place, and all of those things for you. And if you decide that it is enter life 500 at your checkout for $500 off program. Pretty awesome. Thanks again. Neil,

Neil Markey 23:30
thank you, George, appreciate it

george grombacher 23:32
till next time. Remember do your part by doing your best. You.

george grombacher 16:00
So if I want my iPhone, and my Tesla and my Bitcoin to work, we need to get the metal out of the ground.

Pierre Leveille 16:07
Absolutely. Without it, we cannot do it.

george grombacher 16:13
Why? Why is there a Why has production been going down.

Pierre Leveille 16:21
Because the large mines that are producing most of the copper in the world, the grades are going down slowly they’re going there, they’re arriving near the end of life. So and of life of mines in general means less production. And in the past, at least 15 years, the exploration expenditure for copper were pretty low, because the price of copper was low. And when the price is low, companies are tending to not invest more so much in exploration, which is what we see today. It’s it’s, it’s not the way to look at it. Because nobody 15 years ago was able to predict that there would be a so massive shortage, or it’s so massive demand coming. But in the past five years, or let’s say since the since 10 years, we have seen that more and more coming. And then the by the time you react start exploring and there’s more money than then ever that is putting in put it in expression at the moment for copper at least. And what we see is that the it takes time, it could take up to 2025 years between the time you find a deposit that it gets in production. So but but the year the time is counted. So it’s it’s very important to so you will see company reopening old mines, what it will push also, which is not bad, it will force to two, it will force to find a it will force to find ways of recalibrating customer, you know the metals, that will be more and more important.

george grombacher 18:07
So finding, okay, so for lack of a better term recycling metals that are just sitting around somewhere extremely important. Yeah. And then going and going back to historic minds that maybe for lack of technology, or just lack of will or reasons, but maybe now because there’s such a demand, there’s an appetite to go back to those.

Pierre Leveille 18:33
Yes, but there will be a lot of failures into that for many reasons. But the ones that will be in that will resume mining it’s just going to be a short term temporary solution. No it’s it’s not going to be you need to find deposit that will that will operate 50 years you know at least it’s 25 to 50 years at least and an old mind that you do in production in general it’s less than 10 years.

george grombacher 19:03
Got it. Oh there we go. Up here. People are ready for your difference making tip What do you have for them

Pierre Leveille 19:14
You mean an investment or

george grombacher 19:17
whatever you’re into, you’ve got so much life experience with raising a family and doing business all over the world and having your kids go to school in Africa so a tip on copper or whatever you’re into.

Pierre Leveille 19:34
But there’s two things I like to see and I was telling my children many times and I always said you know don’t focus on what will bring you specifically money don’t think of Getting Rich. Think of doing what you what you like, what you feel your your your your your, you know you have been born to do so use your most you skills, do what you like, do what you wet well, and good things will happen to you. And I can see them grow in their life. And I can tell you that this is what happens. And sometimes you have setback like I had recently. But if we do things properly, if we do things that we like, and we liked that project, we were very passionate about that project, not only me, all my team, and if we do things properly, if we do things correctly, good things will happen. And we will probably get the project back had to go forward or we will find another big project that will be the launch of a new era. So that’s my most important tip in life. Do what you like, do it with your best scale and do it well and good things will happen.

george grombacher 20:49
Pierre Leveille 21:03
Thank you. I was happy to be with you to today.

george grombacher 21:06
Damn, tell us the websites and where where people can connect and find you.

Pierre Leveille 21:13
The it’s Deep South resources.com. So pretty simple.

george grombacher 21:18
Perfect. Well, if you enjoyed this as much as I did show up here your appreciation and share today’s show with a friend who also appreciate good ideas, go to deep south resources, calm and learn all about what they’re working on and track their progress.

Pierre Leveille 21:32
Thanks. Thanks, have a nice day.

george grombacher 21:36
And until next time, keep fighting the good fight. We’re all in this together.