Keys to a Healthy Relationship with Evan Marc Katz

george grombacher 0:02
Mr. Katz became the world’s first Dating Coach in 2003, specializes in helping smart successful women create lasting love. He is the author of four books and the host of the highly successful love you podcast. Welcome, Evan.

Evan Marc Katz 0:17
Thank you for having me. George, excited to have you on.

george grombacher 0:19
Tell us a bit about your personal lives more about your work,

Evan Marc Katz 0:22
why you do what you do. Interesting, you lead with the personal life part first. I think I was one of those people who whose biggest fear in life was having a real job. I cancelled my L SATs. When I was in college. I said I want to move to LA and be a comedy writer. Right? Someone writes for friends, why not me, this is the mid 90s and spent 10 years doing that, except without making money. And so when I turned 30, I was like, I don’t want to be the guy who is 40 and still living out a childhood dream of making 14 year old boys laugh. So I pivoted while I was in film school. That was my backup plan was to teach screenwriting in my my 30s. And while I was getting my MFA, I got a job answering phones at an online dating company. And after about a year of it, I realized, Oh, I know a lot more about this subject than all the people who are calling for customer service complaints. I think I’m gonna write a book because writers write. And in 2003, I wrote a book called I can’t believe I’m buying this book, a common sense Guide to Successful internet dating. And it did better than anything I ever did in Hollywood. So I pivoted and combined, essentially, the only things I know how to do, which is to write and to flirt. And I turned it into a career, which has taken me in some incredible directions over the past 20 years. And now as you said, I specialize in helping high achieving women who have everything but the guy and make better dating and relationship choices. So it’s like I’m a professional husband, to women who have bad guy radar. That’s what dating coaching is to me. And as my personal life, as I told you, before we got on today, today I’m celebrating my 15th anniversary, the first five years of coaching, I was single, my blog was called advice from a single dating expert, because who knows more about dating than a guy who’s still dating. And then by talking to other people, I realized what I was doing wrong. And also learn from being a coach, I applied it to my own life. And today I’m celebrating my 50th anniversary. So I’m an extraordinarily lucky person.

george grombacher 2:41
What gratulations on on on all of it, specifically the relationship but navigating a journey through life so far. Thank you. So I can only imagine, I would imagine it’s answering phones that are online dating site is not similar, but akin to being a 911 operator, where you’re just learning an immense amount about humanity.

Evan Marc Katz 3:08
Um, I think there are people who are temperamentally suited to that job, I’m not one of them. I have a very low tolerance for verbal abuse. And that is just a tough job, to feel the complaints. And I was also young, I was in my late 20s, early 30s. And just knowing there’s a real person behind there, there’s pain behind you lost my goddamn password, or how come you my subscription renewed, and I tried to cancel it, and you got to calm people down. So again, I don’t think I was great at the customer service part of the job. What I discovered in the time was when I was able to get past their initial issue, you lost my password turned into, hey, I noticed you haven’t logged in in three weeks. And you haven’t sent any emails right here. Why don’t you check out my profile on this site? Maybe that’ll help you out. And I just offered help above and beyond what they were called for. And realize I went to the company and said, Hey, why don’t you charge 50 bucks and call me like the date doctor? And they’re like, shut up, answer the desk. So yeah, so I just, for me, it was always a matter of just playing myself. How could I be this whatever this is, without someone giving me permission to be this way. That’s what writing always was. And that’s what this job is. I don’t put it on any pretenses or airs, I get to play myself and people are often interested in what I have to say, because I’m coming from a place of compassion and experience. I’m not just some guy on a high horse like I’ve dated online for 10 years. I went out with 300 people I’m not like it’s not amateur hour. Appreciate it.

george grombacher 4:54
i How much? Well, I I think in terms I work in personal finance to think in terms of literacy and then wellness, so literacy is that I understand how this stuff works. I understand investing and insurance, but then the wellness is, how do I actually take what I know and put it into practice? Is that translate into your work?

Evan Marc Katz 5:14
Well, you use the word translate, which I think is is interesting. What we’re trying to do is translate, right people’s blind spots. If you’re a woman, and you come to me, by the way, I only coach women because men need help, they just never asked for it. So I help the people who ask for help. Men need help. They don’t ask for it. It’s unfortunately true. I’ve discovered, alright, maybe they’ll ask for help with finance. They don’t ask for help with dating. So I in general, I translate what he’s thinking to women who are baffled by the behaviors of men. Right. And so and take probably as you do complex ideas, and distill them into their simplest essence, so that they can be implemented. Right, take the complex and make it digestible, right. So that there’s a course of action. It’s not just ideas filling your head, there’s something to do. And so I’ve got a course called Love you. It’s a six month curriculum. And we just walk people, you know, a half hour week, through core concepts. First month is unconfidence. Then, meeting men dating, understanding men relationships, commitment, and we just walk people, that is a massive online courses, an educational curriculum, that also happens to involve coaching community. But the ideas themselves are things that someone who’s been spent a long lot of time in this space, anybody would, you know, probably reach the same conclusions if they immerse themselves in it. But I work with people who are doctors and lawyers and accountants and have busy full lives. And they they all they do is they go online, and they’re just horrified by what a terrible experience it is. And so how can you take something that for people is negative and intimidating and turn it into a positive investing? I could only assume has a lot of that. Right? Oh, I I inherited 25 This is true. I inherited 25 grand from my dad when he died, right? Not much at all. I threw it into the stock market into big name tech stocks in 2000 2001. And I lost it all. Right, so then I developed an aversion to investing. And I have an investment. I have a financial planner, who takes 1% of my portfolio tells me what to do. And I presume he’s doing better than I would do without all the mess in my head. So I gotta guess that there’s some sort of overlap for someone who just has trouble navigating and doesn’t have the the fortitude or time to develop an expertise.

Yeah, I think that there, I think that that makes sense. So you’re working with smart, successful women? Is that because dumb, dumb, unsuccessful women? It just it’s not a good fit.

No, I mean, that’s that’s a that’s a very specific branding question. And I have no trouble answering that. I have been given away more information on the internet than anybody. For the past 20 years. I have a blog that has 1000 blog posts when blogging was the thing. My blog got a million people a month 12 million readers a year, giving away free advice like Dear Abby, alright, 2016 I started my podcast as well. I’ve got a newsletter that goes out three times a week. I just started with a substack newsletter, and an associated podcast with that. So I give away so much free stuff for people who can’t afford advice. The people who pay my bills are women who have the disposable income to invest in their love lives, they subsidize the free for the people who can’t afford it. So it’s not that women who don’t have more impressive careers don’t deserve love. They’re not in the position to do you know, high end dating coaching as well.

Yeah, I appreciate that. How, how frequently are the people that you are coaching people that are by most every measure professionally successful, they’re personally successful, there’s missing this relationship. They’re there their guy radar is is is is off a little bit. How often is it a lack of, of self worth and valuing oneself in that area?

I think it’s fascinating in as much as I’m not a psychologist, right? Like I’m a I’m a you know, experienced amateur, right? Like I picked up a guitar never had a lesson but I’ve been playing for 20 years, right. So now something women can have an enormous amount of self esteem Here, and negative self esteem here, it’s like having two arms with different differently developed muscles. So one, she spends 50 hours a week at work, and she’s an ass kicking CEO. And then she’s in a relationship with a boyfriend who treats her like crap. So I don’t think it’s as simple as confidence because these women, my clients do have confidence, they have no confidence in this. And this dating and relationships often stems way back into their childhood. It’s a father who abandoned them. It’s a critical and abusive mother, it’s the negative voice in their head, where you’re willing to put up with an enormous amount of bad behavior because you’re afraid to be alone and set boundaries. So I the umbrella is confidence. But it would be a disservice to them to say that these are women who lacked confidence. These are women who have enough confidence to go out and kill it in the real world. And behind closed doors, they, my central metaphor is women need to act like the CEO of their love life. Instead, they generally with men act like needy interns, I’ll take whatever you could give me. I won’t go anywhere, I’ll work for free, I won’t make any demands. And you can’t be successful in love. If you’re a perpetual intern, you kind of have to be the CEO. And for a lot of women, that is a sea change over what they’ve been doing for 40 5060 years.

That makes a ton of sense. So how do I know how do I know if I have do is the term limiting beliefs? negative beliefs?

Yeah, I mean, that’s a, I think it’s a really cogent question. For our purposes, limiting beliefs are beliefs that are partially true, but not totally true. But in our mind’s eye, and in our action, we turn them into totally true. Online dating is a horror show is partially true, but not totally true. 40% of people find their spouses online and can’t be uniquely bad, terrible for everybody. Men are just looking for one thing. partially true, plenty of evidence of that 50 million men in America are married can’t be totally true. Right? There’s no good guys left, all the good ones are taken, apart from the fact that there’s probably some really great guy who married the wrong woman when he was 28, and his back on the market at 48 when his kids go to college, and he’s a great guy who very much wants commitment, and you’re just counting the possibility. So just being able to widen people’s aperture, and acknowledge and validate their pain. Yeah, it is really hard. It’s not just you, here’s a whole community of women who are struggling with it. And on top of that, here’s why you can’t give up. Here’s the past it, it’s acknowledging that whatever you’re doing, that led you to listen to my podcast or read my stuff, is evidence of the fact that something you’re doing or thinking isn’t effective. And I always revert back to the terms effective and ineffective. I don’t play right and wrong, smart or stupid, good or bad, is what you’re doing and getting you the love that you want. And if you do not have a relationship that you could look at with admiration, and know that this is it, I feel secure for the rest of my life, you’re probably missing something that I could share with you in a short period of time to turn your love life around.

Again, makes a ton of sense effective versus ineffective, as opposed to me putting my values and judgments on on on what somebody else is doing. Is it working for you? Or is it not?

Again, I’ll overlap it with financial advice. I’m not an idiot. I’m assuming someone who immerses in the self knows more than I do and could give me could instead of me spending hours a day day trading. Someone could be like here, here’s your index fund with low fees, write it out. Don’t even try to beat the stock market. I’ll diversify your portfolio. So if real estate goes up and tech goes down, you’ll be fine. Like there’s a science to it. For people who do this. Why not put your hands in your yourself in the hands of experts, rather than going at it alone? I liken it to having a no GPS. Right. If an expert is your GPS and you don’t have a GPS, it’s not surprising that you’re going to go off course it’s not your fault. Get yourself a GPS do you

coach people to have for lack of a better term must haves nice to have? It’s okay if it doesn’t have red flags?

Can I ask a question to you George? Where she is that yours? Or is that something you heard from someone else must have nice to have? Like where’d you Where’d you come up with that?

I was the Literally, what popped into my head was when I’m working with a realtor and trying to find a house, you’re never gonna get everything you want. But she said, it’s good to have must haves nice to haves kind of a thing.

Okay, I think that’s a really common framing. And it’s not it’s not it’s not a bad one. I think most people’s lists are completely off. Right? So if I’m doing the house, right, I’m starting with a roof, a floor, Windows bathrooms. Were where I’ve got clients who will choose men who are missing those things and wonder why is it so uncomfortable in this house? So our roof and windows and floors and bathrooms are character? Kindness, consistency, communication, commitment. If I gave you a top chef’s supermodel Rhodes scholar who was missing character, you can’t have a nice life. If they’re missing communication, you can’t have a nice life. So people go online. And they’re looking for the most impressive, attractive person they could find who likes them back without ever seen? Are there bathrooms here? Could I go to sleep at night without being cold because there’s no roof. And so we have to get people to start with the first list character kindness, consistency, communication, commitment. Everything else technically is a bonus. And that is not the way people do

that, thank you for running with my house analogy or metaphor that makes so much sense that we’re going to blindly overlook the really fundamental things that you just the character kindness, commitment, communication, for a handsome person who’s a successful business owner.

And so people hear that and they say, Sir, telling me I gotta be with the guy who’s not attractive to me, never said that. I’m saying he has to have these five qualities for you to have the chance of being happy and Hindi, handsome, or great in bed, or rich or take you to Paris or give you a second house and Aspen does not matter at all. Lots of people get that guy and are miserable. So I would take theoretically, someone who’s less attractive and impressive in exchange for these. And so then we get back to well, what are the trade offs? Right? What what what, what is the Venn diagram between settling and compromising? And the answer to that question is everybody makes trade offs, you compromise your way into happiness? You settle your way into misery. It’s basically how you feel about it. A compromise. Oh, I, I moved to a school district. I’m in LA, I’ve moved to a good school district with parks and malls and right, but I’m not near all the cool restaurants in LA. That’s a trade off I’m willing to make. Would it be ideal if I could get the same house in the center of town? Yeah, but it would be a $10 million dollar house like a $10 million house. So to get the, to get my needs met, I found a place that works for me, knowing full well that maybe there’s something better out there. But I don’t spend any time lamenting my choice. And when you choose someone who makes you feel safe, heard and understood. Right? And that’s why I really, it’s basically getting women to trust their feelings. You had a marriage for 18 years with a guy who was dismissive of your opinions. who yelled at you, gaslight, you right made you feel small, lead separate lives didn’t make you feel attractive, and you stayed. That’s not the way to be in a relationship, no matter how impressive he is, no matter how much you loved him. Alright, listen to your emotions. Do I feel safe, heard and understood? And if you don’t, why are you there? So it’s really getting people more in touch with character and emotion and less caught up in the things that we find attractive, which does not mean that attractiveness doesn’t matter. You also need a baseline of attractiveness. Right? I’m talking about character and kindness. You need a baseline of attractive just to get anything off the ground too. But to me that almost goes without saying.

Yeah, really powerful stuff. You compromise to happiness, settle into misery. Poof. I like that a lot. That really resonates and being safe, heard and understood. Trusting your feelings. I mean, those are really first principles, right? Like let’s not let’s not try to confuse this stuff. If these are not present. and it’s just you’re probably not going to have a successful relationship, you’re not going to be happy.

Well, that’s and I’m and I really, really appreciate that George, especially somebody to talk to so many people. The idea that that, as we talked about, we’re taking something that is this big existential dilemma. I don’t know, I don’t know what love looks like, I don’t know how I should feel. And then we could distill it says, You said these sort of first principles, where if these conditions aren’t met, it’s a nonstarter. And then we don’t have to spend all our time in turmoil, should I stay? Should I go? Is this enough? Right? Everybody’s looking for this this moment to say, how do you know you’ve met the one? For me, it was there wasn’t a moment where I knew I met the one. It was the absence of anxiety. Every girlfriend ever had, I was all butterflies about they all dumped me. And I kind of knew they would eventually dumped me. My wife, never a moment where I was like, I can’t be myself, I have to walk on eggshells, I have to apologize. I have to be careful about what I say. I can just be myself. And I say women in general want to be safe, heard and understood. Men in general want to be accepted, appreciated and admired. Which doesn’t mean there’s not an overlap between the two. So I found one woman on the planet after 300 dates, who accepted me without saying I love you, but you have to change these 42 things. And I’ve been holding on for 15 years. Here we are 15 years later, right? But that is huge. Men don’t even realize when they’re chasing young and hot. How important is to have someone who just accepts you without trying to change you. And that’s the Holy Grail.

Mark or Evan? Evan? Thank you so much for coming on. Where can people learn more about you? How can they engage? Where can they learn more?

Sure. My name is Evan Mark Katz Ebn ma r CKTZ. On it Evan Mark katz.com. I have a new substract newsletter Evan Mark katz.com forward slash substack. My course is love you for people who are serious about this and want to make this change and get coaching towards this. But as I said earlier, I give away a ton of free advice. And for your listeners very specifically George I created the link. If you go to Evan Mark katz.com forward slash life blood. I’ll send you a free 25 Page special report on some of the biggest mistakes you might be making in dating some of the blind spots that you might have. And hopefully that’ll, that’ll open your eyes and allow you to make better decisions when it comes to dating relationships and men in the future. Sorry, guys, I do not offer resources for men.

I like it. Well, if you enjoyed as much as I did, show me your appreciation and share today’s show with a friend who also appreciates good ideas. Go to Evan Mark katz.com evanmercktz.com Check out all the great resources, go to Evan Mark katz.com/lifeblood and get that free 25 page report, check out the podcast. Check out the course the love you course so they could so great how we spaced it out over the course of six months and you can learn and put everything into place and find the successful and happy relationship that you’re looking for. Thanks, guys.

Thank you so much for having me, George. I appreciate it.

Till next time, remember, do your part by doing your best