How to Get Better with Scott Young

george grombacher 0:02
Scott Young is the Wall Street Journal Best Selling Author of ultra learning he is a podcaster a computer programmer, he is an avid reader, his newest book is get better at anything 12 Maxim’s for mastery. Welcome back to the show, Scott.

Scott Young 0:18
Oh, it’s great to be here. Thanks for having me.

george grombacher 0:20
Yeah. It’s been a little while. So refresh our memory. Tell us a little about your personal life more about your work and why you do what you do. Yeah,

Scott Young 0:29
I think it’s been like, almost five years, maybe since since Ultra learning came out, which is crazy to think about. But yeah, since then I have become a father twice. I have a four year old and a one year old. I spent a good chunk of that five years, just reading hundreds of books and academic papers and things like that, to prepare for this book, you know, just the topic continues to fascinate me. And I wanted to provide an a sequel for ultra learning, dig deeper into some of these ideas that I was able to begin touching on in that book. Awesome.

george grombacher 1:02
All right. So are you a good dad? I’d

Speaker 1 1:06
like to think so I’d like to think so. I mean, I think there’s always more that we could do as fathers. And you know, certainly when you’re starting out, you’re figuring out like, how do you put on the diaper? How do you do everything you have to do and then by the time you’re round number two, you’re like, you know how to, you know how to get them to sleep in your arms, this kind of thing? So I’d like to say I’m a good dad, but I mean, time will tell I think they each go through phases as they’re growing up. And so you deal with different challenges when they’re little babies and when they’re teenagers, for instance?

george grombacher 1:38
Yeah, for sure. So I’ve got a seven year old four year old and a 10 month old and I’ve gotten better and I’m it got a little better every time.

Unknown Speaker 1:48
Definitely, how many parenting books the very least,

george grombacher 1:50
or apathetic? How many parenting books did? Did you read? If, if any at all? Yeah, I

Speaker 1 2:00
mean, I did read, like, especially before the first one, you read a bunch of parenting books. And I remember reading. I remember reading the one about, like, getting them to sleep on a schedule, which, when with my first son, so my firstborn, he was a really good sleeper. And so my wife and I are like patting ourselves on the back of like, well, you know, we did everything right. You know, we weren’t following the schedule, you know, you just have to follow this schedule. And then my daughter came around, and she was like, you know, I love her to death, but she was not not wanting for sleeping through the night for the first year. And it’s like, okay, all right, maybe it was just the kid. And so you have some of these humbling moments. My, my grandmother, she had six kids. And I remember her, like a quote from her was, before she had any kids, she had six theories of parenting and zero kids. And then after she had zero theories of parenting, and six kids, so I think that’s just how it is sometimes. But I mean, you definitely, you learn your approach, you learn your style, how you like to handle things. And I think, I mean, parenting is just one of the big undertakings that at least some of us to do with life, and he wants to do it well, right.

george grombacher 3:05
Yeah, I’m interested, certainly, obviously, the title of your book is get better at anything. So whatever I do, and I commit to doing, I’m interested in, you know. And my interest interested in getting good at everything, I am interested in getting good at everything that I do. How do you think about that better versus

Speaker 1 3:26
good? I mean, for me, part of the like, I mean, when you write books like these, you go through all these different titles, and you’re like, Fine, split these nuances of like, you know, do I want to put the word mastery in the title, because mastery can also be kind of like off putting it like it’s too big, or you want to put learning but learning sounds too much like school. And so you go back and forth. And you’re like, you have all these like endless conversations where you repeat the word so many times, it’s like, you know, if you say the word muffin muffin off, I’m off, and then it just becomes sounds. So titling of book is a kind of like this weird process where you think about it more than almost anyone else does. And for me to get better at anything. The reason I was drawn to that title, is because, to me, the idea of mastery, or the idea of like, reaching the apex of of a profession. I mean, there’s been lots of books, I think that Anders Ericsson wrote the book peak, very good book, but it’s like, peak, clearly the top, this is the best, right? And the thing that I found from talking to people is that, you know, the best is daunting, but being better, is approachable. And I think you the only way you get to be the best is by just continually being better. And so they’re not opposed goals, but I think better. It shows the sort of immediacy of what we’re dealing with. And so in this book, I really wanted to focus on where you are right now, how do you get better? What’s the next thing you need to do? What’s the thing that you need to do to move forward and, and that also brought out a lot of interesting ideas of the research too, because there’s a lot of research showing that like, what works well when you’re a beginner doesn’t work as well when you’re an expert. And so if you’re reading a book, it’s like how do you, you know, be better than Tiger Woods at golf? It’s gonna focus on a different set of advice than like, you know, I’m real duffer on the green. How do I how do I? How do I get a little bit better at golf? So I’m not embarrassing myself at the business meeting or something. And so I wanted his book to be more in the line of, for someone who has a skill could be their work, could be hobby could be just something they care about? How do you get better? How do you get past that sort of stuck point? I wanted to focus on that.

george grombacher 5:34
I appreciate that. So your book is a beautifully written, clearly well researched book. Thank you are. Do you consider yourself to be a good writer, a great writer? How do you think about that?

Speaker 1 5:52
I think, and how has that evolved? Yeah, I think the moment you think of yourself as a great writer is a dangerous, dangerous time, because then then you’re no longer then you’re no longer focusing on on the craft. So I always leave these kinds of judgments of my first like, that’s for the reader to decide, you can read this and be like, I think this guy’s a genius. Or you can read this and be like, what a hack. And you know what, I leave that judgment to you. I don’t try to have that self perception. For me. It’s always again, that that kind of like, yeah, that first derivative that getting better. And so when I was writing this book, all of my attention was focused on like, what did I do well, in the last book that I can kind of expand on and build upon and, and one of the things for this, this book I recognize is that like, with the first one I wrote, it was more personal, like, there was little sections that were a little bit more memoir, like as my own personal experiences. And for this one, I wanted to try to move beyond that, as a writer where I wasn’t, you know, leaning on my own opinions so much. And it turns out, when you don’t lean on your opinion, so much, you got to read a lot, you got to do a lot of research, like if everything you want to say you want to back up with something that takes a lot more work. And so it was a it was a real journey. But I think at the end, like where the end product came up, I feel like, you know, I hope you read the book. And it feels like, Oh, this guy actually did some reading. He didn’t just say, well, this is what I think about learning based on thinking about it for half an hour.

george grombacher 7:15
Yeah, well, I think that that’s certainly clear. So are you going to make that mistake again? Or is the next book could be based on your opinion?

Speaker 1 7:23
I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know whether it’s a mistake. It’s a difference. I’m just gonna like I like I like the personal memoirs too. But I think I think just when you’re writing, you decide, like, this is my vision for how I want to do it, and then you then you work on it. So I don’t know, slight to the people who, you know, they’ve been through some interesting things. And they want to say what they think,

george grombacher 7:41
for sure. All right, so you mentioned that ultra learning came about five years ago, when did you make the decision to write another book, you always known as a writer? And how did you settle on this topic?

Speaker 1 7:53
I mean, I don’t know I think writing a book and then publishing it. Like there’s something kind of addicting about that. I know very few people that wrote a book unless it went like just was a complete disaster. They’re like, Oh, I never wanted to write another book. Again. Even if it was like really painful. You’re just like, oh, no, I want another one. And so I think the idea has started turning immediately. Now, this, this book, and I think this is like the challenge of writing book number two is that with Book Number one, you’ve been kind of building up your whole life to it, like every life experience, thing, you’ve learned idea, actionable wisdom, this kind of stuff. You find some way to fit that in book number one, and then book number two, you’re like, Okay, now clean slate, starting from scratch again. And so it’s a, it’s a very different kind of process. And so as I said, like, the first book was, was more personal, more kind of, like, you know, seeing through my lens of how I see things. And this book was a little bit more like, you know, what are the things I’m missing? What are the things that I don’t understand? And so, again, just I, I started doing research, I had some, the book went in many different directions until it crystallized and like, Okay, this is the framework of like, how I want to make sense of it. And, you know, I, it’s a very interesting process, working on working on a new book where you’re like, Okay, I want to I don’t want to just be repeating myself and just saying the same things over and over again. Yeah,

george grombacher 9:14
appreciate that. I I got this phrase stuck in my head of Well, I don’t even know if it’s a phrase, I’ve spent some time thinking about the throwaway line of just do it. And it’s such a great iconic term, but he tells somebody to just do it, but I don’t know how so you’re trying to get better at something well, just just go and do it. So I love your book so much because it does break it out into you need to be able to see it happen you need to actually do it. You need to get feedback, and then you break out these 12 Maxim’s and you mentioned a minute ago, unless it was really painful, then you probably don’t want to do it again. One of your Maxim’s deals with it. The value or the problem of difficult things. So I wanted to sort of pull on that and hear more from you about. Does getting better require sacrifice pain?

Speaker 1 10:14
Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting. So I definitely think learning requires effort. So getting good at something, requires attention and effort. So I’m definitely not here to sell the book of like, you know, here’s how you can learn in your sleep or something like that, right? Like, there’s definitely people that have that idea. But I that’s not that’s not my intention, I think, you know, in order for you to, like learn anything, you gotta be paying attention to it, in order to improve on a skill you need to be focusing. So I do think those are important, but are those painful? I think it depends, you know, and I think there’s definitely people who can talk about their sort of entry into a skill or field. And it’s just, you know, it’s exciting. It’s challenging, it’s joyful. Like, the example I like to use of like, the positive case of learning is like, when you get really obsessed when someone gets really obsessed, like a video game, right? Like, it’s just designed to be immersive, and you just get sucked in, and like, Oh, and 100 hours have gone by, and you’ve been playing this this whole time, right? And then you have the opposite example of like, you know, being in the classroom, and like watching the clock tick down. And so, in my mind, learning and getting better at things often involve difficulty, they almost always involve effort, but whether or not they involve pain, whether or not they’re like, you know, this is just agonizing versus this was a joy, I think really depends on you know, a lot of the factors now, can you always avoid pain? Can you always avoid things being difficult, I don’t think so sometimes you’re just gonna have to get through that boring part to get to something exciting, or sometimes you’re gonna have to deal with like, your own insecurities or fears. I have a whole chapter talking about that at the end. But at the same time, I think there’s lots of, you know, difficulties we face in learning things that we struggle with, that are maybe unnecessary, there may be you know, they come up just because the environment, but if we could have a different environment, we would learn better.

george grombacher 12:04
That’s, that’s a great point. As I was reading through it, I thought, well, how many things in my life that I’ve learned and gotten good at have been easy. And so many of them have been physical endeavors, like getting good at a sport. Yeah, and a lot of that does require physical discomfort, if you want to get stronger, it’s by the very nature of it. But the video game example is excellent, because that’s just fun. So it doesn’t need to be painful, but it does require effort and focus.

Speaker 1 12:32
But I mean, even sports, like I know, like, you know, you can get in situations where something that is like, physically taxing, is nonetheless, like, really exciting. I don’t know, you can probably think of sports that you just like, maybe you just caught on to it, but you just really liked it from day one. Like, for me, I liked skiing, like downhill skiing from the first day I did it. And I was really bad. I’m still not even that good. Like, I’m not like some world class skier. But even from the first day where I didn’t know how to turn in, I just had to fall in order to like switch directions. I was having a blast. And so I think, you know, it’s Yeah, I would fall I’d hurt myself, I would, you know, there’ll be physical strain, my body will be sore after. So, undoubtedly, that’s part of it. But I think some of the conditions are set up so that yeah, you’re really going to enjoy something you’re going to naturally have at work. And then other times, you’re going to hit little obstacles, you’re gonna hit little roadblocks. So to me understanding the principles of learning, understanding all this work that researchers, cognitive scientists have done to understand how learning works. there to give you an extra tool, so that when you do get stuck, or when you do encounter difficulties that will make you give up because then well, maybe I could try this or maybe this is the problem, you know.

george grombacher 13:41
Yeah. I appreciate all that. So if I wanted to become a power lifter, that’s, it’s a lot of things, but I need to physically build muscle. If I wanted to become a great video game designer, it’s more of an intellectual pursuit. And if I wanted to get good at meditation, maybe that’s intellectual, but also a little spiritual. Is that are they all the same? Well,

Speaker 1 14:07
I mean, they’re definitely different, like building muscle and building knowledge or skills. De is obviously similar principles, you know, practice what we’re talking about a lot of these things. But there’s also key differences too, you know, I didn’t have a whole chapter talking about some of those differences between like building muscles and building intellectual abilities. But I think that the focus of the book is definitely a little bit more on the intellectual and part of that is just because already get better at anything is like such a broad topic. Like you could write an entire book about one of the particular some, like, I could have written an entire book about just like pilot training, like I read the entire books about pilot training in the book, like, I don’t want to write an entire book about pilot training, especially not flying a plane myself, but you know, you could focus entirely on like how to become a good doctor or how to become a good writer or one of these things. So already just taking the intellectual gamut. You’re covering a good base, but sometimes they’re sometimes they are injured. Leave like if you’re again learning a sport, there’s an intellectual, there’s a cognitive component, and there’s a physical one. So, you know, if you are golfing, for instance, I know Tiger Woods was kind of famous for like being one of the first golfers to like start lifting weights, you know, it used to be just like kind of punchy, older white guys are like, Yeah, you know, whatever, I’ll just hit the club. And then Tiger was like, No, this is a sport, I’m going to be athletic about it and actually, like, build some muscle. So I have more powerful drives. And that’s become a thing now. And but at the same time, you know, the part of his body that’s like controlling the swing, that’s determining whether he hits the ball correctly and stuff. That’s all happening in your brain. That’s all kind of an intellectual thing. It’s not intellectual in the way we think of academics, but it’s an intellectual thing. So those rules, those principles for learning in that domain, definitely apply. So I think intellectual development actually covers quite a bit of what we want to get good at when we’re getting good at things, even powerlifting is quite a bit mental, I

george grombacher 15:56
think. I think that that’s right. So to sort of circle back on your writing process, you just talked about how you wrote or you read books on pilot training. And you have a sense of how many how many books you read, or how much time you spent researching for this book,

Speaker 1 16:17
a couple of years, for sure. So I, I keep a little document. Now, it’s not entirely exhaustive, because sometimes when I would be in the middle of writing a chapter, I would go directly to research some points. And then I wouldn’t necessarily log it. But when I was doing more survey research, like, I don’t know how I’m going to use this yet, I kept a pretty deep, detailed notes system. And every time I would write, read a new book, I’d put it in this file system. So I’d have like, all my notes. So if I have to go back to that book, I don’t have to read through every page. And I think I had at the end of the, the sort of process of writing this book, I think at about 110 books, and maybe no more than that, maybe like 150 books, and then I had about 500 to 600 papers. So I have like a folder with all these, like PDFs and papers I download. So not all of that made into the books. And as you read things in, you’re just like, Oh, that’s interesting, but it doesn’t slot in probably most of it. But in other cases, you know, you just, I think I think the nice thing about doing such a broad survey, is that my goal was writing in his book was to, to not be like overly narrowly focused not to be like, well, this is a cool study, and then I’m going to blow that up and say that applies to everything, instead to be like, here’s a theme that you can see in like these three different places. And this is how the picture fits together. So, you know, one of these I central concepts that comes up early in the book is this idea of cognitive load theory and, and cognitive load. And like, you can see it running through examples of, you know, people doing science fiction writing, and then also the pilot example. And then, you know, people doing poker playing and intuition. So you can see this kind of same sort of broad idea play out in different facets. And so that’s what I was hoping to try to do with the book is to synthesize what otherwise would be researching a fairly specific domain, a specific field and bring it across so that, you know, hopefully, you can see the big pictures, you know, between fields that maybe you wouldn’t otherwise look into. Was

george grombacher 18:16
it easy or obvious to come up with 150 books and 500 papers, if you said, you need to go find 100 books to on this topic, I’d be like, Oh, my gosh, I don’t even know where to start or start

Speaker 1 18:28
with one book, you start with one book on a topic, and then they cite something, and you put a little star next to it. And then when you’re done the book, you download that. And it’s another thing, you started that and you said that and so it’s this kind of like exponentially growing process. And then at some point, you have to call it like I’ve got like a bookshelf or like maybe 20 books that I bought, but then didn’t ended up reading because they didn’t make the cut of like what had to be read next in the sequence. So that’s sort of my process for doing these researches. Like you just start with like, Okay, let’s get like the top 10 textbooks on like learning and memory and cognitive psychology or that you’re in one book. And you realize, oh, they’re talking about pilot training and how there’s all this research on like flight simulators. And that’s kind of interesting, maybe for this reason. And then you download, like too many papers on like how people learn with flight simulators. And then you go go further. And they’re like, Okay, that’s enough flight simulators, and then you’re in the Renaissance Learning about artistic education. So it is this kind of blooming, expanding, growing process that I mean, it takes a lot of time, but it’s also exciting because you go in, you know, I remember reading a book he was talking about, like how Pacific Islanders use pneumonic systems to like navigate the oceans and like it you never would have thought of that if you had just started with like, I wonder how they I wonder how those outrigger canoes got across the ocean. But I mean, you know, that’s how you end up right?

george grombacher 19:44
Yeah, yeah, start pulling those threads. And, okay, so it takes you however long it takes you to read that many books and to actually not just read but then digest and everything else. What about the actual act of writing Amen.

Speaker 1 20:02
I mean, the writing, I find that like, the the problem with writing is that in some ways, the difficult part is getting yourself to the point where you’re ready to write. I mean, I mean, for this kind of book, I think there’s definitely I write a blog, and I have definitely written essays that have more of a like, well, here’s an idea. And then I’m going to just start, like free associating things that I think about that idea. But for this kind of book, you know, the first challenge was like, What do I even think about this? Right? So as I said, you read this wide variety of stuff, and then you have to try to be like, what is the major pattern? What is the major, like, important points? Like, what would I want to distill from this idea? And what’s interesting, too, and then the writing part is, I think, this sort of refining process. So you’re sort of okay, here’s i, okay, I know, I want to write a chapter about, you know, as I said, like I have a chapter was like, I know, I’m going to talk about like poker players and how people get good at playing poker, right? But then you’re like, I don’t have enough detail of to, like, make this flush. And then you buy a few books reading about the history of poker and this kind of stuff. And you go back and forth and sculpt it until you get to a point where you feel like, you don’t need to add, I think you’ve said what you want to say. So I definitely think the approach to writing that I took at least for this book was, you know, for every paragraph I wrote, There was probably like 100 times the amount of effort to like, figure out what that was going to be in that in that book.

george grombacher 21:28
Did you know that you were done at a certain moment? Or was it always like somebody had to rip it out of your hands? Ah,

Speaker 1 21:35
yeah, I mean, well, I knew I was done when it was the deadline to do my master. That’s just a bit of a joke. But I mean, for me, after I’d written it, I was usually satisfied, it was just getting it to a place of writing. So there was like, a lot of early drafts of the book where I was going in a different direction. So I like when I began the research process, my sort of my bird’s eye view of everything was different than you know, like, 100 books later, you see sort of like, this seems important versus this seems to be a minor thing. And then it shifts in this kind of stuff. And so I mean, there’s probably chapters of the book that I wrote, like five or six times because you write it one way. And then you’re like, wait a minute, no, this is actually a better example of this and this kind of thing. And so, I mean, at some point, you just pull it all together, and you hope people like it as a book. But the the sort of the process of assembling it, I think, is that’s the real intellectual work of like figuring out what to actually even think about this. And what is all of this stuff that I’ve read, what is it saying to me? Yeah,

george grombacher 22:32
I love it. Well, I know that you’ve got your work cut out for you as, as the book is now live in in the world. So I’m sure that you’ve got a very full dance card. What is next? Well, I

Speaker 1 22:46
mean, I don’t know obviously, right now, I’m very much focused on getting word or this book that have spent, you know, number of years of my life putting together but I think, for me, I’m excited to go back to practice, like, I’m excited to, you know, I’ve been spending so long writing and thinking about the ideas. And I mean, as you know, from like, ultra learning, I kind of got my start less theoretically oriented, but like learning skills and trying to abstract from that. So I’m excited to return to that. I’m excited to go back to like, Okay, I’ve spent so long learning this, you know, doing another big project doing something where I might try to get better at something myself. That’s, that’s important. So I think I’m hoping that people who read the book are in the same frame of mind than I am of, okay, let’s how do we use this?

george grombacher 23:30
Let’s put it to work. Love it. Yeah. Well, Scott, thanks so much for coming back on. Thank you for all of your work in bringing get better at anything to life. Where can people get their copy? And how can they learn more about you? Yeah, sure. Well, the

Speaker 1 23:47
book is available on Amazon, audible wherever you get your books from. They can also check on my website, Scott H jung.com. I have a free newsletter there I’ve got tons of essays on learning habits, productivity, self improvement, all these kinds of topics. So you know, if you’ve enjoyed this you want to dig a little deeper into some of the ideas then feel free to go there. Thank you.

george grombacher 24:06
Love it. If you enjoyed as much as I did show Scott your appreciation shared today show the friend who also appreciates good ideas, get your copy of get better at anything. Wherever you buy your books from the Amazon. I will link that in the notes of the show and again, it’s get better at anything 12 Maxim’s for mastery, and then go to Scott H jung.com. And I can 100% attest to the quality and the readability and the insights of the blog. It is an awesome and must read every time. Thanks again, Scott.

Unknown Speaker 24:39
Thanks for having me.

george grombacher 24:40
Till next time, remember, do your part, doing your best

george grombacher 16:00
So if I want my iPhone, and my Tesla and my Bitcoin to work, we need to get the metal out of the ground.

Pierre Leveille 16:07
Absolutely. Without it, we cannot do it.

george grombacher 16:13
Why? Why is there a Why has production been going down.

Pierre Leveille 16:21
Because the large mines that are producing most of the copper in the world, the grades are going down slowly they’re going there, they’re arriving near the end of life. So and of life of mines in general means less production. And in the past, at least 15 years, the exploration expenditure for copper were pretty low, because the price of copper was low. And when the price is low, companies are tending to not invest more so much in exploration, which is what we see today. It’s it’s, it’s not the way to look at it. Because nobody 15 years ago was able to predict that there would be a so massive shortage, or it’s so massive demand coming. But in the past five years, or let’s say since the since 10 years, we have seen that more and more coming. And then the by the time you react start exploring and there’s more money than then ever that is putting in put it in expression at the moment for copper at least. And what we see is that the it takes time, it could take up to 2025 years between the time you find a deposit that it gets in production. So but but the year the time is counted. So it’s it’s very important to so you will see company reopening old mines, what it will push also, which is not bad, it will force to two, it will force to find a it will force to find ways of recalibrating customer, you know the metals, that will be more and more important.

george grombacher 18:07
So finding, okay, so for lack of a better term recycling metals that are just sitting around somewhere extremely important. Yeah. And then going and going back to historic minds that maybe for lack of technology, or just lack of will or reasons, but maybe now because there’s such a demand, there’s an appetite to go back to those.

Pierre Leveille 18:33
Yes, but there will be a lot of failures into that for many reasons. But the ones that will be in that will resume mining it’s just going to be a short term temporary solution. No it’s it’s not going to be you need to find deposit that will that will operate 50 years you know at least it’s 25 to 50 years at least and an old mind that you do in production in general it’s less than 10 years.

george grombacher 19:03
Got it. Oh there we go. Up here. People are ready for your difference making tip What do you have for them

Pierre Leveille 19:14
You mean an investment or

george grombacher 19:17
whatever you’re into, you’ve got so much life experience with raising a family and doing business all over the world and having your kids go to school in Africa so a tip on copper or whatever you’re into.

Pierre Leveille 19:34
But there’s two things I like to see and I was telling my children many times and I always said you know don’t focus on what will bring you specifically money don’t think of Getting Rich. Think of doing what you what you like, what you feel your your your your your, you know you have been born to do so use your most you skills, do what you like, do what you wet well, and good things will happen to you. And I can see them grow in their life. And I can tell you that this is what happens. And sometimes you have setback like I had recently. But if we do things properly, if we do things that we like, and we liked that project, we were very passionate about that project, not only me, all my team, and if we do things properly, if we do things correctly, good things will happen. And we will probably get the project back had to go forward or we will find another big project that will be the launch of a new era. So that’s my most important tip in life. Do what you like, do it with your best scale and do it well and good things will happen.

george grombacher 20:49
Pierre Leveille 21:03
Thank you. I was happy to be with you to today.

george grombacher 21:06
Damn, tell us the websites and where where people can connect and find you.

Pierre Leveille 21:13
The it’s Deep South resources.com. So pretty simple.

george grombacher 21:18
Perfect. Well, if you enjoyed this as much as I did show up here your appreciation and share today’s show with a friend who also appreciate good ideas, go to deep south resources, calm and learn all about what they’re working on and track their progress.

Pierre Leveille 21:32
Thanks. Thanks, have a nice day.

george grombacher 21:36
And until next time, keep fighting the good fight. We’re all in this together.