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one blood blood. This is George G. And the time is right. welcome today’s guest strong and powerful. Richard Mosley. Richard, are you ready to do this? I certainly am strong and ready to go.

Let’s let let’s go. Richard is the Global Director of Universum. They are the global leader in employer branding, excited to have you on. Richard, tell us a little bit about your personal life some more about your work and why you do what you do?

Richard Mosley 0:40
Well, I, a family man, I’ve got two teenage children, which is quite useful in terms of what I’m doing, because they give me a kind of direct insight into at least some of the younger generation.

And I’ve been an employer branding for about 20 years. So funnily enough, because I wrote it, I wrote a book on it, which I thought was going to be the end of my employer brand career, after two years in it, this was 20 years back. And nobody had really heard of employer branding, or had a budget for it. So I thought, well, it’ll be an interesting thing to write about, before I go back into consumer branding, which is what I was doing before. And then given it, it was the war of talent. Back then there was we’ve had several awards for talent. But back in 2004, it was it was, you know, particularly gruesome in terms of trying to get the right kind of talent. So it just hit hit the mark at the right time. And I’ve been really doing it ever since working with a lot of global companies, on their, the way they present themselves, but also importantly, the inner workings, you know, the inside story, the culture, that the important stuff,

you know, what’s in the shop, as opposed to what you put in the shop window. I mean, both are important. But in a quite a, quite often, recruitment is blamed for putting stuff in the shop window that isn’t actually in the shop. So we try and keep people honest. And it’s been a very interesting career working across HR and brand and marketing, right. So it’s a nice kind of hybrid role to get that bit of the best of both worlds, and maybe the bit of worst of both roles as well. But that’s that’s me.

george grombacher 2:44
Love it. Fascinating. And so you are a legitimate expert in employer branding. 20 years experience. You wrote the book on it, and then you can still Yeah,

Richard Mosley 2:55
threes, all available on Amazon. Yes. And then your kids, the experts guide to the last one is employer branding for dummies. So from the famous series, so you can you can take your pick, as as to where you are on the scale. Yeah, but

george grombacher 3:12
but your kids just take those and push them aside and say Nope, wrong.

Richard Mosley 3:17
Yeah, no, they definitely think I’m the dummy. Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s always great when you you know, in your professional life where, you know, people across different continents think you’re an expert and your kids think you’re an idiot. So it’s great. It keeps you keeps you grounded.

george grombacher 3:38
Yeah, perspective is immensely valuable. Right.

Richard Mosley 3:43
And, and quite often the, of course, completely right, you know, so sure. If I’m banging on about how important it is for our clients to get into Instagram, they’re, you know, going well, you know, they’re not on tick tock and finished coding. Okay, right. Instagram is the grannies, that kind of thing.

Yeah, there’s jockeying to get on payroll, or, or perhaps remain on payroll past past three years, and hoping that they do well enough so that I can go there payroll rather than the other. That’s I think that’s most parents dream, right, that we’re not funding them. They’re funding us. But anyway,

as a marketing person, I’m an eternal optimist, of course.

george grombacher 4:30
I think that that’s great. I’ve got a five and a two year old and they’ve not yet gotten to the point of directly telling me I’m wrong about everything, but sooner. No. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So you mentioned there’s a war of talent in 2004, or roughly around that time. How do you describe what we’re dealing with right now?

Richard Mosley 4:50
Well, it’s really it’s really come come back again, I mean, in a very unexpected way. And, and I know in the US you’ve you’ve had kind of record record have quit, people just leaving the job. And McKinsey data suggests that a third of those people are leaving without necessarily a job to go to, which is very surprising as well.

And we’re seeing the same in Europe, it’s the same pattern. It’s not just a US phenomenon, UK has had a record number of unfulfilled job openings. Germany’s similar. Italy, similar France, not far off. We’re seeing, you know, record talent shortages in places like India and Singapore, you know, it’s really a global phenomenon that nobody really expected. I mean, I think,

you know, I think when we, when we were doing or survey amongst companies, four or five months ago, we do this kind of annual round of, you know, what’s the outlook for the year and your employer branding plans, and so on. And I think they felt it was going to be a lot easier this year, you know, just because the pressure on hiring wouldn’t be so great. And it couldn’t, couldn’t have been further from the truth. You know, record talent shortages around the world. And it’s, it’s difficult to for many of those companies, therefore, to know how to respond, they’ve got, you know, unfulfilled job openings, they’ve got people quitting, they’ve got people burning out, because people aren’t able to, or companies aren’t able to fulfill, backfill the roles quickly enough. It’s, it’s a really, really, you know, challenging situation. And, and I think we’ve also, as a result, I not that we want to be ambulance chasers. But we’ve certainly been in great greatly in demand recently, because a lot of companies are really having to rethink the the deal they make with talent and how they present themselves. Because you know, that the situation is, has changed both in terms of supply and demand, but also in terms of what people are looking for, which is also kind of an interesting one. Again, I mean, we double up quite often with McKinsey and various workshops that we do, and we recently had a kind of a joint get together with many of our global clients. And Bill Shanika, who’s one of the senior partners, McKinsey was talking about his great attrition work that they’ve done some interesting work into what’s driving the attrition. And what was interesting was the gap between what companies often think they need to do to fix things, and what people are actually looking for. And the we found a similar thing in our data as well. So companies will often think, Okay, well, you know, we don’t like it, but we’re just gonna have to pay more. And there is a bit of that you have to be market competitive, but often it’s sending the wrong signals, because that’s, that’s quite transactional. And quite often what people say they’re looking for. And so the reason often they leave companies is is much more to do with, you know, the culture, values, respect ethics, you know, some of those more deep seated things, which, I guess you would say, some of the, you know, the softer, more difficult things to deal with, you know, that sense of belonging, you give to people within the company, that strong sense of identity and togetherness and community and things like that, that’s, that’s, you know, what, you know, often appears to be the thing that’s driving a lot of the attrition, and often the failure of, you know, people, a failure of organizations being able to attract people, or losing them losing perhaps the the key talent to other organizations, and it’s not just the money, it really isn’t just the money, and that’s where Employer Branding comes in, because Employer Branding is about the bigger picture, you know, it’s it’s, it’s what is the deal, not just what’s the salary, but you know, what kind of organization Am I joining? What are the people like, what are the values? What’s the culture like, you know, what’s my, my development contract? How much am I going to learn how innovative it is all of these other questions, basically,

george grombacher 9:19
it’s fascinating. When I go on the internet, and you read about how people are starting to demand that companies take into consideration stakeholders, and they take stands on different issues. And I just, I wonder, is this real or is this just the internet, but then you look and you see, oh, my goodness, there’s, you know, a third of people are leaving a company without having a job and this is all over the world. So this is real. It’s not just on the internet.

Richard Mosley 9:53
Yeah, I mean, I, it was it’s, it’s often described as the great resignation, I guess from an Indian point of view and, and also from a talent point of view, it’s like the great reset, you know, it’s like, we’ve had this long period, when we’ve had this rather constrained shift from often, you know, being at the workplace, not, you know, it’s not been a shift for everyone, because some people have had to go to work clearly, you know, in healthcare and production and all that kind of stuff. But certainly for, you know, office workers or people who’ve, you know, come together in that kind of environment, it’s been a massive shift. And, and I think it’s a lot of people said, you know, it has been a time for reflection. And what’s been interesting, of course, is that a lot of the resignations and attrition didn’t happen during that period, it was almost like, now we see the light at the end of the tunnel, that people after that period of reflection, are saying, I’m just not going back to that same routine anymore, I’m gonna find gonna find something different and better. So, it’s in that respect, then organizations themselves are having to begin to reset and think differently about their priorities. And, and one would have had to save, if you look at the, you know, number of working hours that people have around the world, and the way that many organizations have become super lean, you know, people have been working very, very hard. And most people in work work very, very hard. And maybe it’s just the great reset, is, we, you know, we’ve just pushed that too far. It’s, that has got too far. And we do need a reset, where they’re much more focused on Well, being much more focused on on in a balance and these other things. And maybe it’s, you know, the other big trend I’m interested in is this whole idea of peak stuff, you know, everybody’s, most people are, you know, probably think I’ve got rather too much of everything. Do I need to work this hard to get more stuff? Or can I, you know, create a better balance? And this sounds, you know, very, I think if if you were saying this 12 months ago, or two years ago, it’d be like, Yeah, okay, he’s, he’s been doing too much yoga, and, you know, a bit too much time, and this is kind of airy fairy stuff. But, but given the situation we’re in, it’s become very, very real, and many organizations are really having to think quite hard about the, the basic, the basic deal. And I think we particularly find this and I’m not gonna mention any individual company names, but that that deal, because we work with a lot of investment banks, we work with most of the big four professional accountancy firms. A lot of the, you know, leading consultancies, and, you know, the deal there generally has been is you work, you know, you get well paid, and you go, well, renumerated, but you work incredibly long hours, and lots of other things suffer your health, your family, your home life, all of that kind of stuff. And, and we’re seeing across all of those types of businesses, you know, a significant level of attrition, but particularly amongst the younger people, which is interesting, because that’s where the deal used to be struck, you know, stick around, if you work as hard as I did, when I was your age, you know, that you too, will be a cart, now, you too, will have the big car and the big house and all that kind of stuff. But actually, we’re finding that that, that deal isn’t that deal isn’t holding up. And, and we and we know that a lot, for example, a lot of the big big investment banks have, you know, put their starting salaries up and their salaries for younger workers up in a quite significantly. And our evidence suggests that it’s, you know, that’s just not, that’s not working, not at least it’s not working to the degree it has to work to fix the problem, so to speak. And that’s at the extreme end of the scale, but you know, you can, you could say the same in many other words, walks of life, I mean, particularly, one would have have to say, for example, in, in healthcare, I mean, my God, what a what a time they’ve been through and how hard they work.

And in many other areas, it’s it’s the same. So it’s not it’s not just those kind of top end jobs where you get huge salaries for for very long hours, in many people work very long hours. But as I say, I think the research is suggesting in our research among students is suggesting, actually, the primary things they’re looking for, are tend to be, shall we say, rather more purpose driven, more to do with the kind of values of community you’re joining those kinds of things, and not necessarily just the, you know, the pain, the perks. So yes, it really interesting time really interesting, I’m still kind of working it out at the moment, of course, in terms of what the response should be.

george grombacher 15:18
And, you know, just listening, it seems like these are certainly positive things, that people are just no longer willing to break their bodies and have crappy home life, trading, that just just just just for money in the prestigious job.

Richard Mosley 15:32
I think there’s always a bit of a trade off. But it’s a question of the level at which you have the trade off, I think it’s a bit like boiling the frog, isn’t it? I mean, maybe I’m talking about my own my own working hours. But, you know, you get used to working very long hours. And I guess the family gets used to you not being around quite as much as you perhaps could do if you were slightly less hours. And that’s just me talking. But I mean, I get the feeling with in many, many of the people we talk, we do a lot of focus groups as well. And we talk about a lot of these issues around well being and work life balance and stuff like that. So and we do these all over the world. And it’s, it’s a pretty common picture. So it’s like a general reset, you know, we’ve been boiling the frog a little bit too long, we don’t actually want to be completely boiled, it’s about time to jump back in. But you do get that point where you, I think, you know, general expectations about how long you work and the pressures you deal with. And we’ve just got to a point where we’ve had this kind of break, it’s not been a complete break, because people are still working, but a kind of a bit of a break. And that people have been able to spend more time at home, they haven’t had the commute. I guess there’s been a little bit more given take, because obviously, it’s difficult times and people have been a little bit more caring, respectful on the whole, for their workers, making sure they’re okay. Um, I think it’s just a, you know, potentially, it’s just a concern or anxiety at the point of, you know, going back to what it was. And we have had a, you know, we’ve had a number of firms that we’ve worked with where the, I think in a quite inspirational way, the leaders have said, you know, we will not be going back to normal. And going back to normal isn’t just about where you work, it’s about a whole range of things, including well being and balance and a whole bunch of other things like that. And, of course, also factoring in climate change and decarbonisation, and the bigger picture, you know, all of that stuff as well. So there’s been, as you say, in a very positive way, I think, a very, a very kind of big rethink, both amongst talent, which is then prompting big organizations or organizations of all size sizes, also to have a bit of a rethink and reset. Like, what can we do differently? Where we can push pushing it too hard? Where do we need to ease back a bit, you know, back all of that kind of stuff?

george grombacher 18:06
Because if it wasn’t enough, just like that, Richard, then you have to throw in carbon check carbon emissions and climate change as well.

Richard Mosley 18:15
But but the point along that, of course, is it strongly linked? Because sure, yeah, with the whole issue about remote working, and do you expect people to come into offices, I mean, offices burn a huge amount of carbon, or I’m not sure burning carbon is the right thing emit a huge amount of carbon. So you’ve got all of these big offices, you know, you’ve got all of the the transport, you know, flat flying around driving around, all of which was the norm before. And it’s really, you know, really interesting talking to, I was talking to now, it was, again, one of the big, four professional service firms. And it was one of the partners, and he was saying, you know, when I think about it, and I had to stop to think about it, you know, my carbon footprint previously was enormous. And now actually, I, you know, both my clients and I still feel feel quite comfortable talking online and avoiding all of that, both time and effort involved in traveling, but also the carbon footprint. So I think that’s part of the reset and rethink, is, you know, how do we organize ourselves in a way that we get a bit more wellbeing and work life balance? A bit more family time, but also how do we organize so that we emit less carbon it’s part it’s part of the, the deal with most organizations, and most organizations, certainly the ones we work with, I mean, they’re, you know, they are responsible, they are concerned about these things. And sometimes it just takes a big shock for them to have to, you know, properly rethink and put it up the priority list. But given given that there has been such a disruption, I think it triggers a lot of those in quite fundamental changes, which are not just to do with a way of working but mean a much bigger issues like the carbon footprint.

george grombacher 20:15
I love it. Richard, thank you so much for coming on. Where can people learn more about you? How can they engage with you?

Richard Mosley 20:22
Well, I mean, I, as I say, workforce for universe and you can find us online universe and global.com. And we’ve got a fair number of articles that you can dig into. If you’re interested in some of the subjects, you can, of course, have a look at the if you if you’re specifically interested in how to get into employer branding for your company, then I think that the books are also useful. I would have to say that, of course, my publisher will would not forgive me for this. And so that’s, you know, I think particularly the employer branding for dummies. And I say I say that, not because anybody I’m sure is necessarily a dummy. But but that what I found Raph writing the book was actually it was the most difficult one to write because it was it was all about turning the theory into practice. So I had a dumber fire. You have a dumber fine order editor when you do a dummies guide. And and basically, you’re the dummy, because he keeps saying, Yeah, that sounds interesting, Richard, but what does that mean in practice? And I began Oh, God, right. Okay. Yeah. So, or how could you say that more simply, so. So, that’s, that’s, you know, what’s interesting is that, you know, if you write a dummies guide, you learn a lot from from somebody who’s basically telling you to not dumb things down but sharpen things up, you know, make it more, make it simpler, make it more action oriented. So that’s a good one. And we also have an academy, so at Universal, so you’ll find that online as well. So that’s like an online course which if you’re you know, seriously interested in learning more in a more of a kind of hands on learning fashion with other people on a similar journey, then that’s probably the best place for you as well.

george grombacher 22:14
Excellent. If you enjoyed this as much as I did show Richard your appreciation and share today’s show with a friend who also appreciates good ideas go to universe some global calm, that’s Univ rsum. global.com. Pick up a copy of all of Richard’s books, specifically employee employer branding for Dummies, turning theory into practice, and then check out the universe universal Academy as well. Thanks, Ken. Richard.

Richard Mosley 22:43
Thank you, George. Great pleasure speaking to you.

george grombacher 22:46
And until next time, keep fighting the good fight. It’s we’re all in this together.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai